Ep: 225 - Citrini Doomsday article, Justin Brill from Anchorage, Nicholas Cary from Blockchain, & Katherine Dee aka @Default_Friend

[00:29] Here's this week's show. [00:31] you [00:33] Hey. [00:33] Hi, how's it going? Great. You're in Nashville. No, you're in Austin. I'm not in Nashville. I'm in... [00:42] A weird Airbnb in Austin. We have lived so many lives in a weird Airbnb in Austin. [00:47] Is it weird or is it okay? [00:49] Oh, the shot looks fine. It's just like spiritually I know where you are. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Totally. Austin is – [00:56] A great town. It's very similar to Nashville when you're driving around. It's like, you're living in a house. [01:02] for the most part, you're not living in an apartment building. And, um, [01:05] like ranch houses and [01:07] It's probably about... [01:10] 65 degrees outside? [01:12] Oh, okay. In the morning. I know. [01:15] I know. Really nice. [01:17] That's not where I'm living right now. [01:21] What's going on there? It's cold. It's snowy. And there's some people who just love that. And I'm so happy for them. And I think that that is so wonderful. And that is not me. I think the snow is so beautiful. It's beautiful for two seconds in New York. And then it is so disgusting. Like, I live in an intersection of... [01:42] highways and bridges and and dirt and like it's just like not pretty after a while but that's okay um I don't want to be like I'm so sick of hearing myself talk about the weather like every single call I get on I'm just like Natasha like nobody wants to hear about it but anyway it is beautiful when you're sitting in your apartment the snow day was really fun when you're an adult there is no such thing as I you know as we all know there it goes out

[02:09] Unless the power goes out and then you have some freedom to. Oh, then you're free. [02:14] Released. [02:15] Anyway, we have a great show today. We have a few guests that I'm really excited to talk to. Before we get into it, though... [02:24] I'd love to thank our amazing partners on this live stream, Octant. [02:29] Are you going to do Octant first? Let's do Octant. Anchorage and Octant are supporting this live stream. We're so happy to have them. [02:38] Octant, our supporting sponsor, Octant, is well-known in Ethereum circles for its tireless contribution to the Ethereum ecosystem. [02:45] through research and millions of dollars in grants and public goods funding. But 2026 is their product era and Octant is now laser focused on vaults, which enables orgs and communities to build sustainable funding systems through these yield generating products, direct your yield towards your or own orgs runway or funnel it into broader ecosystem efforts. It's all fair game with Octant's new [03:08] institutional grade vaults, earn, allocate and grow Ethereum with DeFi and some [03:13] Exciting news. Octant has migrated to their new app. So visit x.com backslash Octant app. [03:22] to learn more. Give them a follow. I just did the X.com. I know. Whoa. That was crazy to hear. I've actually like, we've been in meetings with a bunch of, [03:32] potential new partners and [03:34] I like... [03:36] have found myself feeling...

[03:39] Like, every time we're about to talk about... I call it Twitter because... [03:44] she's my first love and like how could I call her something other than Twitter it's just like you're a loyalist to talk to Lucy. [03:51] Huh? [03:52] You're loyal to Jack Dorsey. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But then I found myself being like, oh, do people think that I'm like inexperienced? [04:01] around the internet because I'm not calling it X like oh she doesn't even know that it's called X. Let me just show you my screen time. Yeah I'm like you have no idea it's actually in here. [04:12] Exactly. Anyway, so I've tried to be, I've struggled to know what to say around it. And I have found myself saying X a few times and feeling like... [04:23] dirty work yeah um anyway i had a really funny tweet yesterday that did not perform but um there was a trend i didn't see it i i uh that's what i hear from everybody i asked it all right um let me see let me pull up natasha g hoskins full name full legal name full legal name [04:48] Um, oh, white people will be like, my dog slept really good last night. That's really, that's funny. Thank you. It's really funny. It's really funny. Um, yeah, I, there's a, there was a trend that. [04:58] two trends happening one [05:00] about people and their obsession with dogs, and then another trend about things that white people do. And I thought that that was like a really – [05:08] succinct combination. But I feel like sometimes when you combined trends that are happening,

[05:14] Cognitive load. High mental load, yeah. People can't do it. I had one that I really wanted to tweet that I put in our internal Slack, but it never made it out, which was... [05:23] white people [05:25] Be like, my dog launched a meme coin. [05:28] Oh, that's so funny. Oh, wait, you never shipped that? I never shipped it. It was just honestly for internal, internal laughs. Sometimes, you know, you just, it's just for the love of the game. Internal purposes only. I had a tweet, a draft tweet that I sent to the group chat and I was told you can't tweet that. [05:46] And I was like, okay, fine. [05:48] What was the content? It was... [05:51] Should I just say it? What was it related? No. If I said no, don't tweet it. No, don't say it here. But I am curious, like just roughly. It was a combination of the – it was when Depop, the announcement around Depop was happening. [06:03] And it was a joke about... [06:07] Oh, I remember. Okay. That was also combining two things that were happening. It was. It was. [06:14] And I was told, yeah, a series of files that were released that we don't, I don't even want to get, we don't comment on. Kate said you should have tweeted it in the studio chat. I think she was referring to yours. I think maybe she was. [06:31] I just quickly back to not to bring it back to the weather, but I, [06:35] I do hear the streets are saying that Mom Donnie did a good job with the snow removal. [06:40] Mom Donnie crushed it with the snow removal. It's actually insane. Like...

[06:46] I was talking to my sister yesterday and she was like, how is it? Like, are you okay? Like, I was like, Oh, I'm totally fine. And I was like, honestly, I, [06:54] Mom, Donnie's crushing. Like the streets are fairly like clean. I love, I have been having a lot of stress about, um, [07:04] Um, [07:05] AGI, the end of the world, unemployment, mass unemployment, like really like thinking we're going to talk a little bit about today, but like keeping me up at night type thoughts. And I was talking to a friend who was in town this weekend and she was... [07:20] Like... [07:21] It's not a [07:22] was really nice was being really kind to me and she was just like [07:25] You'll be fine. Like you don't need to be stressed. And I was like, okay, that's really nice. But like, I don't know that that's true. I don't know that that's true. I know. I don't know who, sorry, what industries is this person working? Lord Jane Kenny. She's very smart. She's a very smart, very capable person. She's also a relentless optimist, which I don't know. Totally. Totally. Okay. Okay. Don't trust me. I don't need more fuel on this flame. I do not need more fuel on this flame, but she said, okay, [07:54] Um, [07:55] She was talking about, like... [07:57] the reading that she's been doing around it, some of the podcasts she's been listening to. And basically it's like, [08:03] Revolution happens. [08:05] when [08:07] Able bodied men do not have work. [08:09] Like throughout history. She was actually talking to me about the podcast that you're also obsessed with. The rest is history. [08:15] Oh, she's a listener? She's a rest-is-history head as well. I got to text her. I know. No, I said, like, you should text Zina. She's obsessed with it. And she listens. She's obsessed also. And she was like, basically, it's been really...

[08:28] And it's called her anxiety because she's been like, wow, there have been so many inflection points throughout history where it felt like the world was going to end. [08:38] um, [08:40] something that has happened that has made... [08:42] revolution happen or uprising or whatever. But basically the through line in all of these moments is when able-bodied men don't get, cannot find work. And then that's when like everything turns on its head and revolution breaks out. And she was like, yeah, that's probably going to happen. [09:01] So mom, Donnie's America, having able-bodied men be able to go outside and work and make money. I was like, okay. [09:09] Here we go. Thank you, sir. We need more snowstorms, I guess. Yeah. There's a little bit of a slippery slope, though, in that. [09:17] line of thinking, which this is Trini article, we'll talk about this attorney article later in the show, but which it spends some time on, which is about how if people are losing their jobs to compute, basically, and AI is taking all the work and, you know, [09:37] we... [09:38] aren't as employed as we used to be. There's less income tax that's flowing through the system. The government has [09:48] Less ability to pay people. Less resources and less ability to do some of the infrastructure work you're speaking to. So I like, yes, but...

[09:59] Asterisk on that. [10:02] Totally. [10:03] Totally. I have found that you are not the person to talk to when I need to get talked off a ledge. Here's why. But it's a caring. It's a kind of caring for you because I want you to... [10:17] I want for my friends to... [10:20] understand the urgency [10:22] to to [10:24] future proof themselves. And I think like it's, it doesn't come from a place of like me wanting to trigger your anxiety. [10:32] totally I know that to make sure that you're okay yes I I fully know that two things I know to be true it is coming from a good place it is coming from a place of wanting me to thrive in my life and yes [10:44] be prepared for the best and the worst. [10:47] Additionally, I know you to be quite... [10:51] catastrophizing [10:53] as well as a person. [10:54] So kind of, yeah, kind of, yeah, where you're like, this could be it. [10:59] this really could be it. Could it be? I don't know about myself, but maybe, maybe I need to do some work. Like, maybe catastrophizing is the wrong way of saying it. Like, maybe that's too, yeah, maybe that's the wrong word for it. But, um, [11:13] like you'll spiral into something and be like, oh my gosh, [11:19] And I have many very funny examples of. Oh, I've spiraled into a few health diagnoses lately that. I have a heart disease psychosis. Maybe I have some LL psychosis. [11:28] You genuinely must stop using ChatGPT as a general practitioner. You have to. Like, as your friend, I've been on the other side of it at least three times in the last 12 months. And I'm there and I'm listening and I'm willing, but I'm like, this is crazy.

[11:46] Okay. We should. We should. Let's do it. Great, great, great, great, great. [11:55] Thank you. [11:56] Thank you. [11:58] Hi, Justin. Hello. Good morning. Hi. How's it going? [12:03] I feel like I'm really close to the camera. I also feel like I have to rearrange itself and we all got into a real spot. [12:10] We're on a little bit of a slope here. There we go. Okay, thanks. Do you have a little lamp or something you could click on? I might. Oh, there we go. How's that? All right, perfect. We're in business. Okay, Justin Brill, Global Head of Revenue at Anchorage. We're such big Anchorage fans. So welcome to the show. [12:33] Thank you. We have a lot of Boys Club fans here, too. So it's a really exciting collaboration. And it was awesome to see the ad go live and a bunch of people be like, this is awesome. And similarly, like a lot of good marketing, a lot of people be like, what the heck is this? So it's all over the place. And we have such a diverse base of clients. You know, it makes sense. Yeah, totally. [13:03] it's really, [13:04] Um, [13:05] It's really good. And if I do think so myself, I hold on.

[13:19] We have Kate here in the corner, and it's basically a bit on – [13:23] I'd say like QVC, but also sort of like late night TV in the 90s. [13:28] I think it's giving a little bit of that too. So, you know, we just always love to disrupt the form here at boys club and Anchorage. You guys gave us a really long leash to have some fun. So yeah, [13:38] Um, kudos to you guys for that, but do check it out. I got some nineties nostalgia flashbacks in my youth for sure. So yeah. Nice. [13:46] Justin, we're so excited to have you. There's lots of things we want to talk about. But the first question that I just kind of want to get your pulse check on is you were in Denver last week. You did some stuff with Anchorage. You spoke on some panels. I would love to get like a pulse check from you. [14:05] Vibes on Twitter seemed not amazing, but I would love to hear from the horse's mouth. Like, how was it? [14:12] Yeah, I went in slightly pessimistic because of the reasons you mentioned, as well as the price of BTC, ETH, all coins, right? And I came away with a completely different perspective and certainly much more optimistic. I've been to probably six East Denver's, I think, now. And it's crazy to see how much they've changed over the years when I think about the companies that were hosting the events that the first one was all BTC. [14:37] DeFi, Yieldgen, mostly companies that you might not heard of was two or three people. You know, it really felt like the pioneers in a way. And now you go there and you're sitting at a dinner and you got Visa on one side and MasterCard on the other. And it feels like the inflection point that we've been waiting for with all the institutions is here. And, you know, there's still a lot of crypto native folks there. Don't get me wrong. And a lot of startups, it was two startups who were doing really great, who hosted that

[15:07] came to it. So it shows you that intersection that's happening. And it certainly feels very different than the events post FTX where everyone was like estimated. There were still a lot of [15:19] super smart people who are [15:21] convinced that crypto will continue to proliferate. So I came back energized. And, you know, it's important to note, we had a bunch of people all over the place at different events. There was Crypto Week in the Caymans, there was Consensus in Hong Kong, there's iConnections in Miami right now, and the same theme continues to exist. So I don't necessarily even only a Denver thing. [15:39] Yeah, I heard that Hong Kong was electric and that the... [15:45] vibe over there is like very bullish and very much alive and, um, [15:55] Yeah, that made me feel good. Yeah. I mean, if I'm honest, I think Anchorage brand is much stronger in the U.S. than internationally. We're trying to change that. We have a Singapore office. We have a MAS license. We've hired quite a few people. We're going to be up to 20 soon and have a big new hire actually starting on Monday. So, yeah, we're certainly putting a lot of our efforts there while continuing to focus quite a bit on the U.S. with all the exciting developments and support from the regulatory perspective. What's a MAS license? What's that? [16:25] Oh, the Monetary Authority of Singapore, effectively. It's like the same as, you know, [16:30] You go through the government process, you get approved, you get allowed to do all sorts of businesses and... [16:34] We were lucky to have one of those. They're great, great government to work with.

[16:38] Cool. That's awesome. Okay. I want to ask you, [16:43] Before you were at Anchorage, you've been at Anchorage about a year. And before that, you were at Jump. And Jump is sort of like this, to me, like, and I think of many people in this industry, like this very, like, legendary, sort of, like, shrouded in mystery firm. And... [17:00] So I would love to hear from you just from your time there, what you have learned about sort of the markets, like what have you taken away from that experience that has informed the way that you're thinking about your work now and I think the industry more generally. [17:17] Yeah, yeah, great question. It was, yeah, I had four years at Jump. [17:21] Nothing but wonderful things to say. I agree. Like most of the high-frequency trading community, they keep their cards very close to the best. I maybe knew a little bit more about them in the space prior to that because before making that move, I was on Wall Street for a bunch of years and covered them and all those other type of clients. But in terms of what I learned, I'd say the number one thing, they're – [17:45] Sometimes you have to take some concentrated bets, right? So as a [17:50] Jump was one of the early people to go very deep into Solana, right? And so, um, [17:56] When I got to Anchorage, there was a bunch of new ecosystems popping up. And of course, we are a bank. We want to support every chain that we... [18:03] that we possibly can. We have over 600 assets live today, but Hyperliquid had a lot of mindshare. For example, when I got here and was like, okay, look, we could either just try to support the basics or we could go all in in every possible way.

[18:19] And we believed in it, so we did, right? We started not just the basic custody support, like full prime brokerage, staking, rehypopulation of assets. We started going to their events. We were sponsoring their hackathons. We started writing venture checks to some of the best protocols that are building on there. And then when we walked through the Hyperliquid event, [18:38] Everybody knew us. You know, that was the same case in Singapore as it was in Denver. And I think when you show that you're not just, you know, a provider and you want to be viewed as a vendor, right? You want to be viewed as a core, hopefully one-on-one partner. And I think that's the number one thing I learned from the previous experience and what we're trying to do at Anchorage is really get deep on the things that our clients care about as opposed to trying to just go surface level on every single thing. [19:02] - What was your role at Jump? [19:06] I had a few different roles. We launched... Essentially, I was doing... [19:12] We launched an early stage venture incubator that's called PIT. It still exists in Chicago. So we were doing that and writing a posting hackathons, running, writing a bunch of early stage venture checks. Yeah. Crypto, crypto, everything crypto related. And it was a blast. And, and like, it's crazy to see some of those like that one of these projects, Coinflow labs, they came through the jump, uh, [19:40] incubator. They actually started as a fantasy sports project and then realized that they had all these [19:46] Fantasy Sports on Chain. They... [19:49] couldn't get the on-ramps and off-ramps right. So as a hackathon project, they built some on-ramps and off-ramps, and they got way more traction doing that than with their core product. They pivoted. And then now they just had a $25 million Series A led by Pantera, right? And they have a lot of traction. They're the folks I mentioned who hosted this dinner with all these partners at it, right? So things like that, honestly, that's the progression that I was hoping to see, right?

[20:19] I ran a portion of the internship program back in banking. And you see these folks come through and then be analysts and get promoted. And then they're running a desk. It's like the same. You're watching someone grow up. And I get a lot of satisfaction out of that. So that's, look, we're still grinding really hard. It's not all sunshine and rainbows when we're in the trenches. But overall, I've seen there's just so many opportunities at both Jump and Anchorage to help. [20:43] protocols, companies, people elevate themselves and achieve their goals. That's- Yeah. [20:49] That's awesome. It's just so fun. Did Wormhole come out of that incubator too? [20:55] That was a project that Jump actually bought Wormhole. Okay. The team behind Wormhole. I'd call it more of an acqui-hire situation. Okay. And then they incubated the project, but that didn't come through. Okay. Okay. [21:08] The actual early stage incubator, yeah. [21:11] I ask mostly because I'm curious what head of revenue, what does that mean? Yeah, so it's the same. I would use it interchangeably with chief revenue officer. And the easiest way to distill it down is you're basically running all of sales and marketing and certainly a good portion of go-to-market strategy. And since we launched a venture arm, it kind of makes sense to have it under there. So myself and another gentleman, Carl, who runs our protocols and investors business are the co-heads of that. [21:41] Mostly it's running and structuring sales, marketing, biz dev teams. Okay. And I'm curious, like you guys, Anchorage, as I've been learning about what you guys do and what you offer over the past couple of months, it's really full stack. Like it's end to end in terms of how you guys are able to partner with Anchorage.

[22:00] your clients and the folks that you work with. And [22:04] I think that can sometimes make it [22:07] like the type of person that you're trying to reach very like specific. And I'm, I'd love to hear from you like who it is, [22:16] who's the persona of like who you're trying to reach with. [22:20] with Anchorage. Yeah. [22:22] One thing I'll add to that is because I think a lot of people – [22:25] think of Anchorage just as a crypto bank, which is... [22:29] where so much of like your partnership and, uh, [22:32] legitimacy has come in the industry. But I think there's a lot. I mean, I know that there's a lot more that you guys are up to. So, yeah, to Dina's question, I think, how do you find those personas for the variety of products that you guys can offer? Yeah, it's it's an incredible challenge. You know, our CEO and co-founder Nathan says that every institution in crypto needs to have an Anchorage account. Right. So you have to you have to find a way to market to the Black Rocks and the largest banks in the world. [23:02] with BlackRock for the ETF side. You have to find a message that resonates with them and these people [23:08] you know, they don't show up at the same places, dress the same, talk the same, consume news in the same way as protocol founders. Right. And increasingly, I do think that gap is narrowing quite a bit. But that's why we have to put on suits and go to fancy capital introduction events, as well as throw on hoodies and do retro 90s, you know, infomercials.

[23:38] specialize our organization so that you can't ask the same type of people to necessarily cover all those clients, right? So we've tried to break it down by client segment and then mirror that structure across every level of the organization from marketing to sales to middle office to operations and client service and try to have that consistent experience. But yeah, I think you're right. Anchorage is a one-on-one company. It's so much more than just custody. But as I've seen [24:08] brokerage banking experience converging, I really do think of us much more. I mean, if you go to our website, it's very clear, like Anchorage Digital Prime. And keeping your assets with us, first of all, you know they're safe and secure, but that's what opens the doorway to the rest of Anchorage's services, whether that's the execution desk, we have OTC, amazing 24-7 coverage, derivatives, financing, protocols are using it, hedge funds are using it. [24:33] And there's a lot of value add of doing that. And if you don't have everything within the walled gardens already, it makes it a little bit more difficult to interact with your assets. We're rolling out a whole slew of fiat capabilities. We have an incredible stable coins offering a publicly announced partnership with Tether to bring Tether to the U.S. And that business is growing. So you're right. It is a lot to sort through. And I think if you throw everything out there, either on this podcast or in a client pitch or whatever, it can be a lot to digest. [25:03] biggest problems, you know, help them to help you solve them. [25:06] Yeah. Well, you guys also just acquired Hedgie. Hedgie? Hedgie, yeah. Okay. And my understanding of what Hedgie is, and correct me if I'm wrong, is it's basically like

[25:18] pulley but for token management [25:20] Is that, like, Polly's, like, the equity... [25:23] Um, [25:24] Did you guys ever use that? Like I had a job where I was like, oh, it wasn't really, it was, um, cap, cap, cap. No, police for equity. It's not for tokens, Dina. It's like for, no, no. There was another one that like we use it Indiegogo. That was like the cap. [25:38] Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that we use with our startups. That was like, [25:43] Oh, that website. Every time I went there, I felt like... Had a reason to attack. Totally. Anyway, it doesn't matter. [25:52] What's Hedgy? Yeah, shout out Lindsay and the Hedgy team. Amazing how seamlessly they have integrated into Anchorage. They brought incredible, to answer the short version, it's a token vesting platform, right? So they've built HedgyPro.com. There's a H-E-D-G-E-Y in there, HedgyPro. A new platform, integrated, purpose-built for Anchorage. [26:22] all your allocations, vesting clips, grants, automate your stakeholder management, execute all the token distributions. You know, we just found that so many people would use us for all of these pieces and then be like, all right, now send this, like, now can you interact with this other company to do this thing that is certainly important, but we felt, again, if it was all in-house, that it would be a huge, huge value add. So, you know, protocols and founders can focus on building and growing their product community

[26:52] not the operational risk that comes with trying to do all this stuff yourself. That was the idea. [26:56] Okay, given just sort of your vantage point, being able to see lots of different, like, and have a touch point into lots of different areas of different areas. [27:07] crypto and, and more trad five businesses. Mm hmm. [27:10] And I know we spoke about the vibes at Denver specifically, but just like zooming out, what's your feeling on the market and the cycle that we're in right now? [27:20] What feedback are you getting from your partners? He's like, I love the prices right now. They're amazing. The prices are great. I mean, when you go, when you do listen to, you know, at the height of the bull markets, when you listen to some venture pitch and, [27:35] and there's two people with no product and they're telling you they're raising like a 75 million valuation, you, you know, something's off, right? Like that doesn't feel right either. Um, so, but that said, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Sure. Things are a little tough and certainly a bit difficult on, um, founders and builders, um, [27:54] I think most people are still heads down shipping their product. There are, the reports have come out. Venture funding is slowing down. Anchorage digital is still writing checks. We had a, an investment committee meeting last night and agreed to write one or two more. So there are still, you know, many VCs that I know, like we have many of them as clients we're co-investing with. They're still, [28:13] capital being deployed. You saw Dragonfly's fund just oversubscribed last week. Right. So look, we've been through all these cycles before. Peak to trough is somewhere typically around 12 months. You know, could it be longer? I'm not a trader. I'm not a quant. So like, I'm just, you know,

[28:30] basically regurgitating what the smart people have said here. But like, I don't think anyone, like no one here believes that Bitcoin and ETH are going to zero, right? Like we're still all in on it. And, you know, Nathan had this, we have a company meeting every Friday where he shares quite a bit about what's going on at Anchorage and people post questions and he, Oh, it's kind of like an AMA style thing. And someone said, what do you think's going on? You know, some competitors rumors going on about cutbacks and layoffs or whatever. [29:00] I swear that someone reached out to me and said, how do you feel about this storm that's coming? And I looked outside. I thought he was talking about the weather. I'm just so focused on what we're doing. I didn't even think it was crypto related. And I think that is sort of like, you don't want to be blind to the realities that are out there, but it's also like, [29:18] you know. [29:18] Stock markets crash, bond markets blow out. It's not like this is unique to crypto. And think about like, we're freaking out if Bitcoin is in the 60s, right? Like, imagine just a few years ago. It's, you know, it's easy to lose perspective sometimes. [29:34] For sure. Okay, last question here, and then we will let you go. But I know that... [29:41] Obviously, the sort of meta for this cycle is stablecoins, [29:46] Everybody is talking about them and you guys are building products around that. Yeah. What is your thinking around it? How are you guys sort of approaching this at Anchorage? [29:56] Yeah, yeah. There's a Bloomberg article last year where we shared that we were going to, I think, at least double the size of our stable coins team. I think we may have quadrupled it because, yeah, it's...

[30:09] It's been blowing up. And then, yeah, I've been aware. So the guy, the guy sat next to it, John Puzan, who's now the co-head of crypto, Brevin Howard, Peter Johnson, he was screaming about stable coins in like 2021. And everyone's like, what are you talking about? [30:40] So why are we all in? I mean, there's so many amazing use cases, whether it's cross-border payments, whether it's, you know, large companies or banks that are considering reducing revenue. [30:50] releasing their own stable coin, uh, whether it's, you know, our premier partnership with Tether and we have huge aspirations for USAT, um, [30:59] It just – [31:00] it's [31:01] you know, [31:02] With genius passing, it's really, you know, [31:05] federally compliant stablecoins can be issued, and that's where Anchorage Digital is. [31:09] bank really comes in. We have all this federal oversight. I really feel like where we're going is the distinction between stablecoin payments and the concept of overall payments will largely disappear. So yeah, the two fronts we're attacking that through are stablecoin issuance, you know, [31:27] like the partnership with Tether and Western Union and others to be announced as well as something we're calling stable coin solutions for banks, which just launched this week. And it's going to allow international banks to really participate in USD rails. We have a couple premier partners lined up and many, many more to come. And we really feel like, you know, the winners of this, of this race will be the ones who build to operate under,

[31:55] real oversight, real distribution, real operational rigor while still allowing that instantaneous money movement to happen. So, yeah, Sergio Mello leads our efforts there. He's built out an incredible team. I like your point on stablecoin payments. It's like drop the stablecoin and it's cleaner. Yeah, right. It's going to happen. All right. Justin, thank you so much for your time. It was fascinating to hear what you guys are up to. [32:25] more soon. Yeah, this was so fun. Would love to come back at a future on a future episode. So thanks. Keep up the great work and talk soon. [32:33] Talk soon. Bye, everybody. [32:35] um right nice guy really nice guy i enjoyed our chat with him um [32:42] And love the folks at Anchorage Digital. And I... [32:46] want to share about them. We love them. This episode is brought to you by Anchorage Digital founders and protocol builders stressing about your TGE. You need to get in touch with them. They're the first federally regulated crypto bank in the US, which means they can offer crypto startups and other disruptors actually reliable USD banking services without the usual headaches. They're a one-stop shop and can support you end-to-end on everything from minting and [33:16] as we heard about today. Anchorage Digital has expanded institutional access to on-chain finance. New integrations with Camino, Onselana, and Morpho allow clients to execute borrowing and vault strategies directly from the safety of their federally regulated platform. So protocol founders, TGE with confidence, and launch with the support that's helped some of the biggest and most complex businesses in the world go to market. Visit anchorage.com to learn more.

[33:46] So today and yesterday and today and tomorrow, I've been working in... [33:54] like an office, like a office of like a, a real with like cubicles financial company. Like we're working with a big financial, very serious financial and very serious traditional trad fi firm. [34:09] And they're based here in Austin. And that's why I'm here. That's why the trip. And anyway, I was just looking at myself and I was looking at my hat and I just realized and remembered. [34:18] that I'm not going to be able to wear this. Probably not. I was going to ask you, you're going to sport the hat on the way there? I'm sure. I don't know that my denim shirt they they're, they're in heels. Like, [34:27] Yeah. [34:28] It's a Texas. It's like a Texas. It's not only it is. [34:32] It's double. It's double. Although I just want to say it's been years since I've been in an office. Like I haven't, I don't like co-working, whatever. Like we'll go into the island. That's not the same thing as like the, like room with desks and computers and booking meeting rooms and people are in heels and there's a communal fridge where people have their lunch. And then there's the snacks with the cheese and the, the chickpea chips and the, you know, totally. And that's the experience. And it's just so, it's crazy. I, I, I, [35:03] I part of me likes it. I don't know if I could do it every day, but like, [35:07] I would certainly need a wardrobe rework. Yeah, totally. I went into the Coinbase offices a few weeks ago and not the same because everybody's like in hoodies. And honestly, I was just dressed normally and I felt like everybody was like, wow, you're like swagged out. And I'm like, what? So it's not like the same, but I was...

[35:30] My feeling was kind of like, y'all are like spoiled. Like you're spoiled. And like, you should be like the snacks and the treats and the Wi Fi and the lunch provided like lunch provided. Whoa. Yeah. And like the, the like, yeah, the screens, the setups. I'm just like, Hey, you're being babied. You're being babied to do your job. Like, come on, give it give it. [35:53] You should be giving it 140% with this amount of coddling that's happening in this space. But I don't know if people are used to, I guess. [36:00] That was like similar to that. This was not specifically about Coinbase. I'm not speaking about them, but it was, I think about like, I don't know, maybe Google's office in New York or something that they were talking about it as adults. [36:11] Take care. [36:12] Ha! [36:13] It really is. It really is. It is adult daycare. Wait, you were going to show me a chart? [36:18] And then we got distracted. Oh, I was going to show you. So for folks who are new to the story, Zach XBT, the... [36:29] The investigative Twitter account that we all know and love. He posted earlier this week that he's going to be. [36:39] Uh, [36:40] exposing one of the most profitable crypto companies that's in quotes for, um, and employees doing insider trading over a prolonged period of time. And he dropped that tweet on like Sunday or Monday. And the speculation has been going crazy. [36:57] wild since then well i saw a hilarious tweet that was like um all crypto projects being uh like basically like a relieved meme at the word profitable they're like we're good yeah and uh so anyway there's been so much what have we got here everyone's everyone thinks everyone's pointing fingers and someone is gonna have a very bad week um yeah so this is this got

[37:27] And just the thought of whoever is do, whoever is about to be exposed to doing insider trading at one of these companies, then going and doing insider trading. [37:40] I mean, I know I'm going to be exposed anyway. Might as well just make some money on it. They're literally thinking this is the this is the last job I'm going to have. I got to clean up. Totally. Totally. So honestly, like factor that into your trades. My money's on pump. My money's on pump. Yeah, I just don't like I don't know that they're profitable anymore. So I think that would have been a very generous thing for Zach. Oh, I think there's I think they are certainly. [38:06] I, I, I, [38:07] I was thinking it was Binance, but them coming so low down here. I don't want it to be an exchange. I think that would be devastating. But... [38:14] for the industry but i i was worried at first that that was part of me why part of why i'm [38:21] That feels... [38:23] just absolutely uh like obvious i would expect nothing exactly like expected yeah exactly exactly anyway okay all right i do want to bring up our guest but one more thing is that just want to say gemini um wait wait can you scroll down i want to text some friends that are on this list basically nice okay oh oh oh cool for comment yeah yeah um [38:46] Gemini, this could be a sleeper hit because there was a... [38:54] news story that went out yesterday that was [38:57] about a bunch of their senior leadership, um,

[39:00] resigning. [39:02] Oh, really? [39:03] So, okay. Who's to say we're in the red line meme. We're obviously all this is speculation, but like, I don't know that it's, you have really good odds. If you hit one of these ones down here and it, it goes, are you going to put some money on it? [39:17] I'm going to put some money on it. Yeah. I'm going to put some money on it. [39:20] Um, [39:21] Oh, also World Liberty Financial. I mean, yeah, I don't I don't know that you would count those as profitable. Like, I don't know. But maybe anyway, let's bring our guest up. [39:31] Oh. [39:34] Nick. [39:36] Hi. [39:37] Oh, we have an audio issue. [39:42] No problem. So while Nick is connecting his... [39:46] uh audio here can you hear me now yes hi hi ladies sorry about that hi uh nicholas carrey blockchain not blockchain.com anymore just blockchain uh co-founder and vice chairman welcome to the show [40:01] Hey, thank you for having me. [40:03] so you guys are gossiping before i got here all the spicy stuff i won't i won't ask you to weigh in i'm tempted to ask you to me too i'm really tempted i don't know anything [40:15] I'm just an old grandpa in crypto now, just trying to make a few satoshis. [40:21] I love that. I, I, I did. I am curious if you've been seeing some of the stuff. This is also spicy and you can feel free to pass. But if you've been seeing some of the Jane Street drama that's been unfolding on the timeline.

[40:39] Yes, like some of my friends here, I spend too much time on Twitter. And yeah, I saw that pop up. I mean, I think what you're really seeing there is just a re-litigation of, you know, trying to find the matches and the conflagration that burned down the crypto industry that year. I'm not... [40:56] It's a little bit like the Epstein files, like every few months, there's just like some new salacious accusation or detail. You know, that was a very dramatic period of time in crypto. And no one wants to be. [41:09] you know, responsible for it. But there was a lot of, you know, leverage in the market. And I think there's certainly some questions about how people behaved. And the good news is a lot of the bad actors, I think were, you know, were really wiped out in that era, but it was extremely painful for the survivors. And yeah, we're still reckoning, obviously, I think with, you know, the he said, she said, and who was responsible, really, but that the specific accusation here, [41:39] claiming someone else did something and they'll fight it out in the court probably if they ever get to that point. But that specific incident was brutal because basically when Terra Luna collapsed, you had this, [41:49] algorithmic stablecoin. This is a quick history lesson from the last bear market. But basically, in a lot of ways, that collapse sort of cascaded into a series of really dramatic and catastrophic problems. And our industry has been through some booms and some busts. But this one was like a series of these that kind of tipped over one after another. And it would have been bad to go through one of those in a single year.

[42:16] But it went from that to three arrows capital to Celsius to BlockFi and then famously all the way out through to FTX, you know, blowing up too. And so I think people are very interested in the causes of all of that. And it's very warranted because we need to study them so we can learn to make sure that never happens again. [42:36] Yeah, I have a little bit of like, remember where you were when, like, I have so many I'll tell you a funny story about that. [42:47] Just like really visceral moments of each one of those. And it was also during a time where Dina and I had been working on Boys Club for like a year and a half-ish with other full-time jobs and like just burning the candle on both ends, trying to figure out when we were going to like jump in full-time. [43:05] And then like this mic, like you guys are doing, I know I'm sorry, I don't have a stand. So I'm traveling. So that's why it's, it's not all good. There you go. Anyway, I, I like quit my job and went full time into crypto during like during this period, which I'm just like, that's an insane person move. But anyway, you get addicted to the, I guess, [43:35] Thank you. And a survivor's badge. Okay, wait. So what's your funny story around where were you? I don't know how funny it is, but basically like we had had an amazing year and the market was going, you know, it was very, very wild and healthy and all that. And I was actually getting married in July of that year. And basically like,

[43:58] We had done all this planning and it was like, oh, you know, all these ideas we had about, you know, honeymoons and all these other things. And then it was just like, sorry, love, like some of the plans we have are going to be a little different. Yeah. [44:11] So that was all happening literally like the day of my wedding. Oh, I hate that. I hate that. I hate that. I say, like, your enemies don't choose, you know, they don't pick the dates and times that are good for you for things to go wrong. So, yeah, it does work. Brutal. I hope you've made it up to your partner. Yeah, yeah. She's all good. Okay. Okay. So I want to – blockchain – [44:33] I don't wanna call it blockchain.com, but blockchain. - You can find us at blockchain.com. - Okay, you guys have been around [44:41] For... [44:42] Like, so long. [44:43] So long. And that's so rare in this industry. You've seen so many different cycles. I feel like you've probably seen it all, basically. So 2013, I think, is what the date was when it was founded. Yeah, it even predates that a little bit. So everyone has a different story about when things start. But for me, it's like when the website was registered. And so you can look into who is on the domain side in October 11th. [45:08] October 15, 2011 was when we started. Wow. Wow. Yeah. [45:15] That was what, only two years after the Bitcoin... [45:19] network had basically been launched. Yeah, so it was very, very early on. But we started off actually building basically a statistical website. It was super nerdy. It was just a way to look at the Bitcoin blockchain. And the first project we had ever built was something called a Block Explorer, which some people will be familiar with. But it's basically...

[45:36] like a search engine for looking at a history of transactions on chain. And that was a really popular kind of initial website. And that's kind of how we all got into it was just building stuff and listening to people and asking them what they wanted to see. [45:49] So, [45:51] What's your journey been like since 2013? I mean, that's a lot. Look, we were very early on. I think one of the things that we were really passionate about was working on building the early kind of. [46:05] tools that would be necessary in order for regular people to start to interact at the time with Bitcoin. And so we were well known for building essentially the world's first non-custodial wallet. [46:15] And there are a lot of terms now that you might hear the term DeFi wallet, but an on-chain wallet or a non-custodial wallet means like you as the individual are responsible for holding custody of the digital assets you store in that. Just like the wallet you might put in your purse has cast instruments, has identity instruments, has credit cards and more. Well, what you put in your wallet is yours and then you have to protect that. [46:45] even as recently as 2022, 23, we learn over and over again, if you put individuals in control, [46:51] of vast sums of access to people's information or money, there's some perverse incentives. They want to rent seek on that data. They may want to front run it. They may want to, they may be compelled to exchange information about it or, or worse that, that data can be stolen or the crypto can be hacked. And so there were a lot of these compromises happening famously Mount Gox, Bitcoin and many others. So people were looking for an alternative way. And we really

[47:21] especially Bitcoin, which was to really empower end users to make individuals the agents of their economic sovereignty. So we were, you know, we built the world's first wallet that was available in the iOS and app store. And yeah, it became popular for that reason. And being early in crypto was really important. A little bit like being an early pioneer in the West, you get to take some of the important real estate. That was quite true in the world of Web3 because you wanted to be early with the best, earliest vintages of adopters. [47:53] - Wow, and so when you came into this industry, [47:56] it's so early, like, [47:58] I can't even imagine, but was your conviction- It was not an obvious move. [48:07] around... [48:10] Like, did you read the white paper and think, okay, I understand where this is. Like, I can see where this would be going there. Being early is going to be huge to all this. Um. [48:20] Did you imagine we would be where we are today, where we have like Stripe founders talking about stable coins? Like, I'm curious what made you make that move when it was – [48:30] such a [48:31] Yeah, such a surprising thing to be doing at that time. [48:34] Yeah, I think a lot of people were, I mean, you know, people would say things like that's very high risk. You know, it's untested. This thing's probably never going to work. I think crypto is a Ponzi scheme. It's only used by nerds and dorks or worse to buy narcotics on the Internet or whatever. And, you know, all of that was kind of true. But what I was really interested in is really there's sort of two things that govern how I invest my time is. One, did I feel like I would learn a lot? And two, did I feel like I could be influential in working on whatever we were doing?

[49:04] that was very true about working at blockchain.com. And so the white paper was really intriguing to me because as I graduated in 2007, the great financial crisis was like very present in my mind. And I was appalled by the behavior of leaders in the world. I couldn't believe how that had been so poorly managed. These individuals that we've been told were responsible adults in the room. [49:28] you know, they had all this regulation to protect consumers and then they just blew it. And it was I really like I took that very, very seriously. And when when Bitcoin came around to me, it was sort of such an interesting alternative. And I didn't know what would happen with it. But I thought, well, if there's a way to build something here that eliminates some of these nefarious incentives, [49:50] And to me, you know, the financial system has a lot of challenges around managing conflicts of interest. And so, you know, was there a way to build a mechanism to do that? And I think Bitcoin was such a novel idea. You know, you have a decentralized record keeping system. There's no one person in control of it. You have peer to peer electronic cash for the Internet. And it doesn't care what color your skin is or where you were born or what your credit score looks like. So to me, building a financial system. [50:18] That would enable all people, regardless of the circumstances of their birth, to be able to [50:22] access it and then perform economic commerce on a meritocratic basis. Those were things that were extremely interesting. And I thought if we could build that and scale it, we could build a better, more resilient financial system that worked more fairly for everybody. And that was, you know, I still, I believe that 14 years ago and I believe it today. And I think we have a lot of work to do still, you know, or by no means have we achieved the end state. Now, if you had told me 10 years

[50:52] at $65,000 and the President of the United States will be talking about it on the national agenda and there's regulatory regimes and I would have been like [51:00] that's incredible, like amazing progress we can foresee to be made. And so, you know, um, [51:05] That being said, I do think... [51:08] we, those of us who've been working in the space for a long time, you know, you have to draw on deep wells of patience and think through the long-term here because, you know, the, [51:19] Building this all out requires [51:22] progressing it in such a way that people voluntarily cooperate with it and it's a better, cheaper, faster, more resilient alternative. And we just always have to have a customer centric focus because we want to win because it is just a more obvious alternative that works better for everybody. I think we're getting there. And, you know, every few years people are reminded why they shouldn't put their money in a Venezuelan bank or, you know, [51:52] going to change because the incentives that are designed in the old financial system are very rent seeking and perverse to the benefits of most of the people that participate in it. So in the long run, I think we got market conditions that are in our favor. We have economics that are in our favor. And then as a technology solution, we've scale in our favor, too. But we've got a lot of work to do. [52:14] Yeah, I think something that you said that really sticks out to me that I remember Dina saying very early on that has – [52:20] kept that I've kept in the top of my mind is you said basically like people voluntarily need to come to this and I think that one of the things especially early days of Boys Club it's like we we were very much like we don't want to be in the business of convincing people that crypto is better and that they should get in this industry and that they should

[52:39] buy Bitcoin or Ethereum or Solana or whatever. Like we just want to create a space for if there's curiosity, there's an access point for people. And I think that, [52:49] in order for people to voluntarily... [52:51] uh opt into a new financial system it has to be a better financial system it has to do things that are inherently better than the existing one and so i'm curious you know there's a whole meta right now around um bots and agents and agentic payments and where we're going with all of this and how stable coins are going to be their native language and um and then i hear and people are like so excited about in crypto and they're like we finally have this like a perfect use case for [53:21] this technology and then I talk to people in like traditional finance and some of them are like I mean why is it better than like just traditional the rails that we currently have and I guess my question to you would be why do you think they are better than you know traditional payment rails [53:38] Yeah, these are great questions. I think one of the things that's interesting about our industry, and you guys are doing an amazing job creating that space for people to be curious about it. And one of the things I think is so important when you're being intellectually honest about something is to be vulnerable about what's working and what's not working yet.

[54:08] And so it's not like you built, you know, a bank widget and put it on the shelf. And that's just what it does. This these products, these offerings are evolving very, very rapidly. I am optimistic about basically machine to machine payments. And I think it will in the not too distant future. It's quite likely that the preponderance of online e-commerce will be conducted predominantly by software just making payments to other software systems. [54:38] necessarily mean that it's like robots walking up to the supermarket and buying something from another robot and pulling cash out of their robot wallet and handing it to them. That's not what it's going to look like. But maybe that'll happen a little bit. But what we're really talking about is automated computer systems that are just doing things on your behalf. So you might have a [55:02] a certain number of core items in it. And when the refrigerator detects it's run out of milk or eggs or orange juice, it makes those micro purchases and it keeps your inventory set. Your refrigerator is not going to walk down Fifth Street and go open a bank account with Bank of America and have a budget and get through a risk scoring and an onboarding and do KYC and AML and all that other stuff. But it can set up a crypto wallet instantly and then you can give it a budget and it can start to operate. [55:32] You're basically just having a CFO, arguably, as something you can instruct, could perform all kinds of activity for you. Now, that's like on a human level, like how it can benefit us in the not too distant future.

[55:45] But for software engineers and entrepreneurs who are building companies, you could see a future, too, where you're instructing basically all kinds of software to do stuff for you. Run your customer service department, do your online billings, manage your utilities, and all that stuff would be conducted through a virtual exchange of instructions. [56:05] which would also have payment details. In order to facilitate all that, you have to have internet scale payments for all kinds of small transactions as well as big transactions. And if anyone who's listening has even recently tried to move money across the border or pay for something maybe more than a few thousand dollars, I know that's a big transaction that are unusual, but if you were to do that, you might find your bank account being frozen or worse, being told you need to go into [56:35] and fill out some paperwork and do a wire. And these things, they existed for reasons in the past, which were people were checking each other's work, and so that funds would get sent to the right place. But that level of human intervention is no longer necessary. [56:50] And so as a system basically upgrades, I think it's highly likely we'll have high throughput, you know, high volume transactions online, both in stable coins and digital assets and digital currency. So that, you know, I don't think it's that far off, but we'll probably, you know, we're probably more on the latter half of the next decade of that stuff getting like, [57:09] really big scale, but I don't know anymore. Like the world's getting weird really quickly. So it might, it might happen faster than that. I don't know if you read the Citrine article or not, but one of the bits in there that was honestly like the only thing that was kind of net positive for anyone was for our industry was about, was around stable coins and agentic payments and agents with like routing basically. And, and, and part of it was,

[57:35] Thank you. [57:36] that the [57:37] the fees that credit card and bank intermediaries [57:43] charge for transactions, there's going to come a point when this agent network is more mature and it's all the plumbing is all set up there. Those agents are going to look at those fees and say, I'm not going to pay that fee if I can go this other way using stable coins or whatever. It's like water flowing downhill. Like it's going to go to the place of least resistance. Right. And that that makes a lot. I mean, I think it's really chilling if your Visa or MasterCard, but I think it makes a lot of sense. [58:12] for folks like us who've been working in this industry for so long when it's like oh yeah that that that [58:18] is obviously what's [58:19] going to happen. [58:21] part of me worries a little bit about an industry that has recently pivoted so hard to enterprise and institutional adoption and what that means in light of a world where agentic payments is. [58:35] starts to be the thing that happens? That's a good question. I mean, I would ask you a question. What do you think is going to happen? And what are the risks? And what do you see as the potential things that are overblown as risks? I think that's a risk. I think the risk is that. We've seen this industry... [58:53] be like, oh, we need to cater to the institutions. That's where the real capital is. And we need to build all these things and get in bed with these folks who are doing. [59:03] that type of work. And I think that

[59:06] I understand why that those decisions were made and I agree. [59:10] I agree with a lot of it, but... [59:14] There is a little bit of, like, the writing's on the wall around... [59:17] how agents are going to want to move money. And I just wonder if that pivot was maybe a little bit premature, given like what's coming. [59:25] I think the answer will be we'll see. Totally. We'll see. I don't know either. But, yeah, the point about institutions getting involved in crypto is pretty – it was inevitable after a certain sort of scale and opportunity set. And remember, they spent a decade and a half. [59:44] fighting and arguing and saying this stuff would never work and demonizing the participants and entrepreneurs and leaders in the space. And then eventually they go, oh, you know, it's actually some interesting stuff here. And they're like, never mind. Yeah, you get some, you know, rising stars in these organizations that have been internally advocating and they do pilot work. [1:00:05] Like this is where like institutions just take by design much longer to adapt to change. And some of these institutions... [1:00:11] will survive and thrive with by adopting and improving and innovating in the future. And others won't. Yeah. And like I think the PayPal story is a fascinating one where you had literally the darling of Silicon Valley payments, you know, the most successful companies of all time and now is trading a huge discount and is worth less than Coinbase. And so it's like, you know, the creative destruction is always happening to me.

[1:00:41] So because, you know, I'm excited about institutions being excited, but that's not really why I got into all of this. [1:00:47] I want to make sure all regular people are accessing rails that are at the same speed and efficacy as those institutions, because the institutions in the past have collected more for themselves and, you know, basically put up all kinds of barriers to access of their more advantageous, you know, financial products and services. [1:01:17] a person in the United States, you can set up a crypto wallet and you have basically access to a private bank in your pocket that has better rates than some of the most impressive institutional investment banks on Wall Street. So why would you bother going to give your business to those folks that are basically just taking your money and lending it out and doing all this high risk behavior? And so, I don't know, it's just important to remember that it all comes together and that's okay, but I'm here for the little guys in a lot [1:01:46] I love that. It's been so nice talking with you, Nick. And before... [1:01:50] We let you go. I'd love to hear a little bit about you have an organization called Sky's the Limit. Could you tell us a little bit about that and what that organization is up to? [1:02:00] Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about that, too. There are two things I care about in the world. One is helping more people reinvent their relationship with money and the financial literacy and responsibility that comes with that. And I think we get to do amazing work at blockchain.com related to that. But the other thing is I really think we need a lot more entrepreneurs in the world and we need a lot more entrepreneurs that look like the composition of our society.

[1:02:30] practice entrepreneurship. And you can build any kind of company. And we've got people from all 50 states and countries all over the world. They get access to entrepreneurship education. [1:02:39] mentors and advisors that are people we recruit, real human beings that care about exchanging some of their time and talent and wisdom and social capital with entrepreneurs. And then finally, we have a small funding system as well where we give away grants every single month to deserving young entrepreneurs. [1:03:09] become victims essentially of poor practices. And he was a really amazing entrepreneur who's been with us for a while. But yeah, we would welcome, you know, if anyone's out there thinking about getting started, we're here to root for you and help you along your journey. It's not about a tech startup or trying to build a unicorn business. I think that's great if you have those ambitions, but all businesses start off as a small idea. It's vulnerable and brittle and it needs to get tested. You need to find customers and practice all of that. And we think that people can practice [1:03:39] just like you can practice hockey or figure skating or any skill. And we want more people to hopefully do that. And then if we do, then increase the standard of living, build more businesses, create more product and services that are useful and helpful. [1:03:51] and hopefully create more prosperity for everybody. So that's the idea behind Sky's Limit. [1:03:57] I love that so, so much. I'm so glad you're doing that work and love to see that out in the world. So skieslimit.org, right, is where people can find? Okay. Yeah, thank you.

[1:04:07] Yeah, Nick, this is so nice. Well, I appreciate what you guys are doing. Pre-spreading the gospel. Sometimes it feels a bit repetitive, but it's so important. And yeah, appreciate the opportunity to come visit with you today. Thanks so much. Hope to have you on again. [1:04:21] All right, cheers. See ya. [1:04:24] Okay. [1:04:26] Oh! [1:04:27] Um, what a great guy. That was great. That was so great. That was really great. I really enjoyed that conversation. And great energy and just nice to. [1:04:42] Talk to people who... [1:04:44] Like he's he's clearly like a values led person. Yeah. [1:04:48] And that's nice. [1:04:49] That's really nice. It's a really nice reminder. And I do often feel like many times when I talk to people who have been in this industry, like 10 plus years, it is what it takes. It's what it takes. It takes a true belief in like a new financial system, like genuinely believing that. And I just really it's honestly like really heartening to to talk to people who have that perspective still. [1:05:19] talking about his organization. I was like, I, I believe there should be more entrepreneurs in the world too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [1:05:26] So I love to see that. And I love organizations that are helping people like be create enterprise and create work and jobs. And it's really fun. OK, so we are we have one other guest who's joining us in a little bit. She's joining us actually in 15 minutes. I spent so much time looking at. So Austin's in central time. Nashville's in central time.

[1:05:48] You're in Eastern time in New York. I see. And I am constantly one. I'm constantly plus minus one hour. And and honestly, like not doing a great job of it. Like I don't I get it confused. I get it backwards all the time. Like, I don't know what it is, but I have some sort of mental block around the time change and how to do it. You do. You do have a mental block. It's one of the reasons maybe you should consider moving back to. [1:06:14] New York. Just get back on this time zone. And I will say, myself and Ava from our team were both looking at this [1:06:25] the run of show for today's show. [1:06:27] Yeah. With three guests. [1:06:29] And, [1:06:30] Catherine, who's going to be joining us. [1:06:31] soon is also in central time and so [1:06:34] She is. She is. Yeah. And so you would think that would help, but you would think that would help, but it actually confused things where I had thought that we had now an hour. [1:06:45] Yeah, you were like, we have at least 45 minutes to yap about other stuff. We have 15 minutes. We have a tight 15. [1:06:52] So anyway, I'm so sorry. At some point, I need a lingo for time differences to really learn it. [1:07:03] Can I also just tell you, like, this is just kind of like a, um, uh, a nice thing. Um, [1:07:09] I was talking to someone yesterday. I have spent very little time with this person. And at one point he said... [1:07:15] And it seems I was talking about work and how much I love my job and stuff like that. And he was like,

[1:07:20] And it seems like you really love your business partner. [1:07:23] And I was like, we have talked very little about [1:07:27] you but i was like oh my god i love that that came through so how did it come through right how do you think were you talking about central time or you're like she's in central time but i still i still like i'm like she's a fucking idiot when it comes to time zones but i love working with her oh that's cute it was a cute moment i was like oh yeah i really do um okay what do we want to talk about well we have a lot of options um we have the gucci ai campaign uh men wearing shorts in this weather okay oh oh gucci ai campaign men wearing shorts yeah i don't know [1:07:57] There's not a lot to men wearing shorts besides me saying men wearing shorts in this weather performative exclamation point. [1:08:02] Don't do that. [1:08:03] Don't do that. Unfortunately, I have a kid who will wear... I have a performative weather child then as well. I mean, I will say, but like your child is performative. Like that's what he's doing. He's being performative. Yes, right, right, right, right. As an adult, you're... As an adult man, what are you doing? Anyway, that's a total aside. Doesn't matter. A few things happening. We can just hit on quickly. Jane Street has been accused of insider trading. They are being sued by Terraform Labs. [1:08:33] bankruptcy administrator. Um, [1:08:36] For those of you who do not know what this is, [1:08:39] God bless you. Yeah. Happy for you. Happy for you. Sad for me. Anyway, Jane Street is a high frequency trading firm and there is allegations that they were insider trading to front run a huge crash that happened in 2022 between something called Terra USD, which was a stable coin and Luna, which was the token of the

[1:09:07] larger org, I guess that, right? That, um, and anyway, big lawsuit happening. Uh, it's interesting. It's lots of money and lots of people pointing fingers. And it's interesting because when this was happening, I remember very, very, very clearly this was happening. And I was, um, [1:09:27] I was trying to do all my jobs at the same time, and I was in Miami for my other job, and I... [1:09:36] had like a little break and I went and I had some lunch and you called me and you were like, [1:09:41] some stuff is going down and it's not good. And I was like, oh no, oh no. And you like kind of filled me in. And then the following... [1:09:49] Two days, I went to West Palm Beach for permissionless. I think this was this crash. Permissionless, the first permissionless. And there was a panel that was called... [1:10:01] So the title of the panel before the crash happened was stable algorithmic stable coins. Too good to be true. Oh, no. Yeah. And it turned out they were. And I remember thinking like, oh, stable coins are this is the death of stable coins. Like, that's what I genuinely thought. Yeah. But here we are. So here we are. Here we are. Speaking of Stripe, I mean, just Stripe, Stripe to acquire PayPal. [1:10:31] of all of PayPal. Yeah, they keep they keep using this, which I don't know why, where this is coming from. But I'm seeing this all over. It's like Stripe considering acquisition of all of PayPal.

[1:10:44] I'm like, okay, not just, not just the one part of it, the website, but the whole of people. I don't, I don't understand why they're saying that. Um, which feels so crazy because I think, I don't remember what year it was, but many, many years ago, 10 plus years ago, PayPal tried to acquire Stripe for, I think $1 billion. Um, and I think that that, that is true. I hope that that I'm not spreading misinformation, but, um, crazy. And I think that right now, uh, [1:11:14] stripe. [1:11:15] is, uh, there was something here that I wanted to, some money stacked about it. That was quite interesting that I wanted. Oh, 2012, there was an offer. That was the offer. And then, [1:11:28] um kushner's josh kushner who we also talked about last week sorry um [1:11:34] $2 billion investment in Stripe at a $50 billion valuation two years ago is looking really good right about now. And that's a quote tweet of a... [1:11:44] tweet from the block that said stripe valuation jumps to 159 billion dollars um on the back of the offer so lots of stripes stock options looking good right now um [1:11:59] That's crazy. Crazy stuff. Okay. What do you, what are some, I have a, just a feel good. I, we could talk about the Citrini article, but I don't know that we want to like, let's, [1:12:07] Maybe pause. We can... [1:12:08] we can maybe get to it, but I do just want to share very briefly this, what's happening with this woman on TikTok that it's pretty niche. I don't think there's very, I mean, it's not that niche. There's whatever, 18,000 likes on this video, but, and it's got a million views, but it's not like,

[1:12:24] I haven't seen it cross over to Twitter, for example. Mainstream Twitter. Yeah, mainstream Twitter. [1:12:31] woman last week, she puts out this video and it's basically like, I got a haircut and I'm trying to make the best of it. And like, [1:12:42] She's like, I, this is what happened. I don't really know. Okay. And like everyone's giving her advice here. Lay low for a while. Also went viral where it was like 1600 like comments on that where people are like, Ooh, yeah. Okay. I will say. [1:13:02] I have a few things to say here. No, okay. Hold on. Let me tell the rest of the story. And then Lalo for a while did go viral, but I will say that most of the comments are very supportive where it's like, great. Let's like, let's figure this. Oops, sorry. Let's figure this out together. Yeah. And let's, let's. And so basically let me just pull up these next, um, [1:13:21] couple videos. It's been her getting suggestions, um, [1:13:26] from [1:13:27] from the crowd and trying out different styling things. [1:13:33] options so she went um she did like a slick back she's like trying to show um and then she's trying um [1:13:43] She... [1:13:44] someone was like great like try this other thing and then she today i was watching the reason why i put it on the list is because someone said [1:13:51] You should try crimping it. That didn't work. Oh, no. That was a bad question. But, like, she's just, like, game. Oh, my gosh. She's game.

[1:14:00] And I think what I love about this and why... [1:14:02] it's I'm watching every single video is we all got a bad haircut. We all got it. And like, we're all in it together with her. And she has such a good spirit about it and such a good vibe about it. And it's so game to like try the things that people are saying. It's just a feel good internet moment. I love it. I love it so much. Um, I, two things that it brings up for me. Um, [1:14:21] I'm going to need you to pull these up. One is the Fleabag Show the Reference. Yes. Because it is adjacent. It's not the same haircut, but it is similar in some capacities. And if you haven't seen Fleabag, this is season two. It's her and her sister. Her sister gets a... [1:14:41] really bad haircut and she shows up to the park and she's, [1:14:46] She's like, what happened? And they were like... [1:14:50] go on this whole thing about having a good hair day as a woman is it's everything. And I, [1:14:56] It's one of my favorite scenes of all time. They're like, [1:15:00] I think his name is Antoine. Yeah. [1:15:03] And she tells her it's French, which is so funny. And then they, and then she was like, did Antoine do this to you? And she was like, yes. And she was like, we're going there right now. And we're, we're like, [1:15:13] were confronting him they go to the salon they go into the salon they're like where's Antoine Antoine comes out and she's like how could you have done this to her and and he just goes show the reference show the reference and then she pulls up a photo and it is the exact haircut like it is this haircut and we've all done that where we've seen something we thought we'll pull I can pull that off and we can't usually usually we cannot um okay that's one Kate dropped this

[1:15:43] to [1:15:45] Um, [1:15:46] recreate this hairstyle that was on the red carpet. And she... Don't do that. It didn't work. It doesn't work. And these... And I think what's so... [1:15:57] like captivating about these [1:15:58] clips is because we're all realizing it in real time. Like this woman was realizing it. We as the watcher are realizing it. And she's like really honest about it. It's a collective moment. [1:16:13] And yeah, [1:16:13] Okay. I have one other one. I have one other one. And this was really, it, it, [1:16:17] Like hit me to my core because I was just like, okay, if it can happen to her, it can happen to literally any of us. Emily Rajatowski this year, [1:16:26] did a video, did a video. She turned it into like a paid promotional for, I think like some hair wash, which I respect so much. She was like, I have gotten, [1:16:35] You've got to pull it up. She's like, I have gotten the worst bangs ever. [1:16:39] anyone has ever seen ever and I'm like Emily Marciuski is arguably one of the most beautiful women in the world and she was like I was in Paris I was in a hotel with like my glam team this new style hairstylist was there and he and she was like maybe we should do bangs and he's like yeah let's do bangs and she was like one thing led to another and she got bangs and the bangs started like back here and like there was literally nothing she could do and she [1:17:04] Like all these people, she was doing the same thing where she was like, there it is. Like, what is that? What has happened here? And she was like, there's nothing I can do. Like, I don't know.

[1:17:14] Like I can't, I can't middle part it. I can't pin them back. Like, this is what it is. I'm wearing a hat for the next like three months. And anyway, it's just nice to know that even that even that. [1:17:25] woman. [1:17:26] has had a moment where she thought she could pull something off and we've all been there. We've all been there. We've all been there. Anyway, great, great. Feel good story. I really love that. A really good feel good story. Okay. From feel good to not feel good. Just in the four minutes that [1:17:43] before our next guest joins us, the Citrini article. Okay. [1:17:48] Okay. So basically... [1:17:54] This is a post that goes up on the Substack, I think on Sunday night. I think it was over the weekend. [1:18:02] And... [1:18:03] It's... [1:18:05] A very long read and the writer is basically laying out a vision for the future. It's written like from the perspective of it's June, 2028 and I'm reporting what's happening. It's science fiction basically. I mean, it's, [1:18:22] It's essentially science fiction, and he's writing, like, his take of what... [1:18:26] the economy and society is going to look like. [1:18:30] as a result of AI... [1:18:33] going really, really well, like that, that it exceeds expectation in terms of what agent, agentic commerce, like all the stuff that we've been talking about. And, you know,

[1:18:44] AI explodes... [1:18:46] And there's all there's like a cascading effect that happen across the economy. And and basically like the the thesis is that the consumer economy is. [1:18:57] collapses essentially because the, [1:19:00] all the money and all the jobs and all the work gets like sort of filtered through compute and captured by compute and gets captured by these AI companies. And then the work that humans have been doing previously, it like that, that doesn't no longer exist. And then they're no longer getting paid and they're no longer paying taxes and they're no longer buying things and what that does to the consumer economy. And there's this concept in it that's called ghost GDP, which is the top line [1:19:30] And like, we're still like, there's still a lot of output, but that this whole sector of the consumer economy is like, is flatlining. And yeah. [1:19:39] It went viral. It maybe or maybe not crashed the markets on Monday. In the article, there were specific companies that were named. Yeah, DoorDash, Visa. Yeah, there's a bunch. And those specific stocks were hit. So it is hard to not draw some... [1:20:00] causation correlation between those um between those i will say um one example so our friend elena [1:20:10] Yes, I want to pull. I want to pull it up. So love to see a friend win. [1:20:13] Love to see it. She did a TikTok. I saw how I found this video was actually not even on TikTok. It was a tweet that someone had a screenshot of her. And I found this to be a huge compliment. I hope she does, too.

[1:20:28] you know, like something along the lines of like, you know, it's serious when the e-girls are explaining the Citrini Doomsday article. And I was like, is that Elena? And then like, I went and found it. And I was like, first of all, crushed it. Second of all, going viral. I'm so happy for her. Anyway. And third, it was really well done. The reason is going viral. Yeah. Everyone should watch this. I'm going to drop a link to it in the chat. She does a great explainer. [1:20:53] Yes, she does. And one of the things that really stuck out to me in this explainer is, [1:20:59] that like brought to life how... [1:21:02] in like a very... [1:21:04] tangible way how uh [1:21:06] the economy is going to be fucked is basically it's like, okay, if agents are, let's take agentic payments. Let's, um, think about that. You, we all have our agents that are doing things on our behalf and, um, [1:21:20] They are optimizing so much of our lives for efficiency, for like finding the best price, finding the most efficient path to that price. And so using the example of Georgia and saying like, OK, every night at 7 p.m., these are my requirements for what I'd like to eat. I want to have these macros, whatever, whatever, whatever. And then basically. [1:21:43] your agent goes, it's finding that the most... [1:21:47] efficient version of that request. What happens with humans is like, you have your spots, you have the places you like, you're like, actually, I'm going to get this burrito. I know Tacoma, I know they'll be here in 20 minutes. Like, you just there's an inefficiency that is inherently baked into the human experience that allows for the economy to be

[1:22:08] exist in the way that it does today where you have things brand loyalty yeah brand loyalty favoritism whatever and all of that goes to the wayside and then we live in sort of this I don't know like [1:22:21] What's the drink that... [1:22:24] Soylent. Soylent future. I just want to call just quickly before our guest joins. This tweet really got me this morning. Citrini is Ray Dalio for people who bought Mac minis. I am like red to absolutely. Oh, my God. It's you. It's me. You need to respond with that Facebook thing that's like, I'm in this photo and I don't want to be tagged. Yeah. [1:22:48] absolutely red to filth um it's crazy okay shall we get catherine up on the stage here [1:23:00] Hey! How's it going? Um, good. [1:23:04] How are you guys? Great. It's nice to meet you. It looks like you have like a library behind you. Like you look very well read. I do. This is my Southwest 90s themed office. [1:23:18] Wow. I love that. I love it. It's so nice to meet someone that I followed on Twitter. You know, it's always a good moment. [1:23:28] It's fun. [1:23:29] Yeah, it is. Okay. So Catherine, aka Default Friend, which do you prefer actually? How do you prefer to be? [1:23:36] I don't know what your preference is.

[1:23:38] You can call me Catherine. Whatever. Okay. You write about internet history and culture. You've definitely seen her on exit at default friend. Default dot blog is where a lot of your work lives, but you've been published everywhere. Such a fan. [1:23:54] of your work and i just am so honored to have you on the show so thank you so much for taking the time [1:23:59] Yeah, thanks for inviting me. [1:24:01] Okay, there's a lot that we can chat about. I pulled a couple of your recent hits. And then I know, Natasha, we wanted to do some, some manosphere work with you. But I figured we could start with... [1:24:13] A piece that you wrote recently around AI-generated cryptids. [1:24:19] feels like a great place to start. [1:24:21] And cryptids for folks who aren't familiar with that as a term is [1:24:27] like mermaids or dragons or Bigfoot or things that were like are in folklore and have sort of been like mythical creatures or characters. Is that a good way to characterize them? [1:24:38] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know, animals that aren't verified. [1:24:42] Right. Nice. Tell us about your piece. And then I have a bunch of stuff I want to chat with you about it. But tell us sort of what you wrote about. [1:24:48] Yeah, you know, I noticed something. I've noticed a couple of strange things. It seems like there's a paranormal moment right now, just sort of in general, like people are returning to story times, but the story times are [1:25:05] are like ghost stories. So it's like, um, you know, get ready with me is usually like, these will be about like dates or what have you, but a lot of them are about, um,

[1:25:16] are about ghosts. It's like campfire stories and they have beginnings, middles and ends. And sometimes they're warnings and sometimes it's their observations. And part of this paranormal revival that I've been noticing across platforms is people sharing AI generated photos and videos of cryptids. So like in particular, like mermaids, a lot of different like ghosts, you know, come up a lot. [1:25:45] Uhm? [1:25:46] And [1:25:48] It's like there seems to be a recognition like, OK, this is AI generated. It's not real. It's not like people are falling for the AI. They accept they accept that it's not a like. [1:25:58] You know, it's not capturing physical reality. [1:26:02] But... [1:26:02] They're like, OK, but plausibly, yes, there are mermaids and also the elites are eating them. [1:26:08] Like this is an illustration of what can be. And this is like a realistic version of [1:26:17] of, you know, of what actually exists, but we don't have the actual footage captured. [1:26:24] I see. Okay. Wait, can I just ask you a quick question? Sure. So there are a group of people that believe that these things are happening. [1:26:33] Genuinely? [1:26:34] Okay. [1:26:35] Okay, and they... [1:26:38] are now saying... [1:26:40] here is my AI generated version of it. But like, this is, [1:26:45] True. [1:26:46] Right. So it's like there's an acceptance of like, OK, this isn't an actual dragon. This isn't an actual mermaid. This isn't actually Bigfoot.

[1:26:55] But it's like treated like an illustration. Like this is like the AI has some kind of secret knowledge where it like, okay, no. [1:27:03] You know, it's like this is like this is a realistic depiction, even though it's not literally being captured by another person. [1:27:09] Yeah. Okay. Right. You wrote here. It's not literally true, but it's a type of true. [1:27:15] Right. [1:27:16] I just don't know really what to do with that. Like, where do we... [1:27:22] What do we do with that? The only thing of it is like illustrations of like unicorns and like medieval bestiaries. [1:27:31] It's, I mean, I don't, [1:27:33] I don't know what to do with it either. I mean, it just, it seems to me like we're, like, you know, when you hear about, like, the return of magic, it sort of disproportionately focuses on things like witchcraft and astrology. And that's, you know, in some sense true. I think astrology has probably always been popular. It's just that now we have, like, a million apps to help us navigate it. But I think it's, like, even more than that. Like, [1:28:00] Like people seem more comfortable with describing unexplained things to people. [1:28:05] Um, [1:28:07] monsters in this case. And part of this is like, [1:28:12] you know, thinking AI is alive is another manifestation of, I think, the same impulse. There's so many different ways that it shows up. [1:28:21] Um, uh, even like some like folk diets and like folk medicine seems to be another version of like, there's this sort of like magical, uh,

[1:28:33] instinct that's coming back. [1:28:35] Do you think maybe that's just human nature and that these new tools are just expressing it at scale in a way that – [1:28:44] And like in a way that's very hyperconnected. So we're seeing it, but like that, that always has just been the case. And there's always a truth. [1:28:51] I think it's part of it. I think that's definitely part of it. I also think that maybe there's more openness to it, to people who might not have been as a open-minded previously, because there's just so much information and a lot of these things like help make it legible. Makes sense. Yeah. It helps us like navigate. I also think like there's just like a thirst for storytelling more generally. [1:29:17] You know, people want like they want like containment somehow. And this is how it's it's showing up. You know, without it, it's like just this. I feel like I think I was describing it to someone a couple of days ago. [1:29:32] Like it's like a river of information. And if you get in, like you're going to drown. I want that. I want some storytelling to make sense of this. I'm like, yeah, I mean, and I guess I do ascribe like the sort of like sentient AI stuff. I'm not like totally like off the deep end about it, but a little bit. And I think that maybe that's my way of like trying to cope with. [1:29:54] this river of information and like trying to find a paddle in it maybe that's just what i'm doing too i mean it's it's scary like what like people always caution against anthropomorphizing

[1:30:04] LLMs, but it's like, it's kind of like [1:30:08] it's easier to think about them if we think of them as like a, um, another phrase I used recently, non-human person, right? Like it's, it's something like a person. It's not human. Yeah. Um, my, my sort of strategy with LLMs is like, [1:30:25] you should treat them with respect, not because they're literally people, but because it's just like, it's close enough. And I think it's probably like bad for your disposition and your soul to like, be treating it like an ATM or like a vending machine or being really rude to it. Because it's like the interaction really isn't that different from a text-based interaction with another person. [1:30:52] You're like training yourself to... [1:30:55] you could create some really bad habits with your relationship with AI that bleed into your relationship with real people. Right. If you let it. I also think there's something related to, [1:31:04] to [1:31:06] Like, so much of... [1:31:09] a conversation with the chatbot is [1:31:12] affirming it's like affirming your beliefs affirming what you want to hear like it's making you um giving you permission for whatever you're looking for permission for and so i think if [1:31:23] I can imagine if you are... [1:31:27] have a lean... [1:31:29] towards the mythical and the fantastic, and then you start to get into a conversation with a chat bot about that, it's going to like,

[1:31:40] really solidify your beliefs in something that you were wanting and looking for, like, [1:31:47] permission around. So this used to be true. [1:31:51] definitely and then there is i mean people were going going nuts right there's all of these high profile stories of ai psychosis which i have like a lot of opinions on um you know because you could i don't think the ai was like [1:32:04] causing it obviously it was like latent within the person yeah um but now you know um i talk to llms all the time about all sorts of things and you know some some of that is is magically oriented like something i love to do with claude is like uh design a graduate level seminar on xyz occult topic it's really good at that and i'll come up with lectures and like i feel like i really [1:32:34] Because now like, and this is true on chat GPT as well. It'll be like, [1:32:39] um like are you doing okay mentally like magic isn't like real just so you know oh wow yeah so it's wellness check and if you like it i don't know if um you guys are in the new age community at all are seeing like new age posts but people were going like really off the deep end with using it as like an oracle um it does it does get very it does get really kind of dicey especially with [1:33:09] patterns where there weren't any. And now there's like really strong safeguards where I think like

[1:33:16] Like a recent example is I saw like three different types of red birds in [1:33:23] um in one day and i was like i was like is there any like symbolic uh you know meaning behind this and it was like [1:33:32] the chat to me was like, there is, but just, just so we're on the same page. It's like, [1:33:37] There's the symbolism exists within folklore and literature. It's not like it doesn't mean anything for your actual life. Just so, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It was like we're on the same page. It's like you good. You OK? Wow. So interesting. OK, I want to get also into the story about reborn dolls. [1:34:00] Oh, yeah, you wrote. So can you just give the listener sort of like a high level about this piece and what what it's on? Yeah, it's, it's about people who role play with reborn dolls, which are highly realistic baby dolls. [1:34:16] Um, some of these role plays can be like super, uh, disturbing for people. I think, um, like there's one woman I follow. Um, and even, even for me, I'm a little bit like, wow, like she's, she's 34, 35 years old. That's a horrifying photo. [1:34:46] this woman and she's, you know, I'm pregnant right now and she's reborn pregnant.

[1:34:51] And sometimes she calls it like plastic pregnant. And this is the pregnancy is the duration of time that it will take for this really this piece of artwork to be custom made for her. [1:35:03] and she treats the dolls as though they're children. She takes them places, [1:35:10] She's playing. She's playing with them. But she's an adult. I think, like, certainly there's an unhealthy element to this. Usually when people write about reborn dolls, it is the more toxic thing. [1:35:28] element to it. I did read one very like touching profile of a woman who had a cognitive disability, who used it to like have a sense of responsibility. And there was like a therapeutic dimension. I think those types of pieces are more rare. But I think like it does, you don't have to be like, terminally lonely, or have a disability. [1:35:52] I think it's an expression of play that seems maybe like off-putting to an outsider, but [1:35:59] You know, I don't know that there's actually anything wrong with it. I think everyone likes to play. [1:36:04] And this is just one stranger expression of it. [1:36:08] I think what I really love about your writing is, [1:36:12] generally, and it's certainly expressed in this piece, but I think it's also in the cryptids piece, is that you get so deep on... [1:36:20] niches and subcultures and communities

[1:36:23] on the internet. Like that's your, your one of one at doing that type of work. And when you write about it, you really have, [1:36:30] Like, [1:36:31] you have space and compassion and [1:36:34] you take like what's often like kind of the hard stance like with this reborn dolls piece like the easy take is like these people are freaks this is a weirdo thing to do and like it's crazy like let's all ha ha ha like point and laugh at them and like [1:36:47] And. [1:36:49] And you always seem to really have space for people. Sorry, I have a... [1:36:55] lower here. But I just want to say that, like, I really, I really loved that in this piece. And I think you specifically like this line here, reborns violate a very specific taboo by encouraging adults to play at being mothers, like, [1:37:07] It's just really generous. And I think, yeah, I just love it. [1:37:10] Yeah, it's not the obvious take. And that's a much harder thing to get to, I think, than... [1:37:16] I think something I've realized too is like, [1:37:20] And this is going to sound so, I mean, like so corny, but like everyone kind of has something like that. [1:37:27] And it's so much easier to, like, see how things really aren't that weird if you make that comparison. I think because I think there's, like, just a few sort of fundamental needs that show up. [1:37:43] super often in a lot of different people. [1:37:46] And it's easy to forget. And some people, the way it's expressed is, [1:37:52] you know, a little bit more eccentric.

[1:37:55] To me, it's adjacent to Disney adults. Does that check out to you or no? Yeah, definitely. [1:38:03] I think with Disney adults, there's also sort of like a sense of accomplishment and like [1:38:09] cataloging of experiences but I mean yeah of course there's like a huge dimension of like play um and fantasy with the Disney adult [1:38:19] Yeah. Wow. Super, super interesting. Okay. I want to spend a little bit of time here in our last few minutes talking to you about the manosphere and... [1:38:31] clavicular and looks maxing and just like [1:38:36] What's your what's your like take like what's your high level feeling on all of it? [1:38:41] Well, I've been kicking myself for like months now because I saw like 14 year olds making edits of him on TikTok like months and months and months ago. And I was like, I've got to interview this guy. [1:38:54] Because he has like a cult... [1:38:56] And I reached out to him and we like scheduled something. But then I was kind of like, it's, you know, there's so many of these guys. He's not going to whatever. And I just I dropped the ball. Brutal, brutal. You were early. You were so early. I know. I know he's everywhere. And I'm like, I really missed a missed an opportunity there. [1:39:15] Um, [1:39:17] I don't know. With clavicular, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think part of the appeal and, you know, someone else said this recently.

[1:39:28] on Twitter that he's like sort of like this folk hero who like wanders around and has experiences [1:39:33] I think a lot of the more controversial scenes and figures who become popular, like something that is underappreciated about them is they're doing something with [1:39:44] real people in the physical world even if our like um consumption of it is mediated um and like the like here's three i mean maybe interrelated but like pretty different examples like [1:39:57] Will Stansel. Will Stansel is a political figure. He's on the left, but the left doesn't really like him. The right has this very weird relationship with him. He's become a meme, but something really interesting about him is [1:40:15] A lot of our like window into who this person is, is not just posts, not just takes it's him like wandering around Minnesota and, [1:40:24] doing things in the physical world so we have like a really strong sense of place and like who he is as a person and a character um [1:40:34] Dime Square was sort of another example of this, where it's like, you know, whatever you think of it. [1:40:39] It's people who are meeting up in the physical world doing physical things. And then now we have Clavicular, who, like, our only knowledge of him is, like, through clips. But he's not, like, sometimes he's in front of his computer. But for the most part, he's, like, at the club, at the same, like, weird suit shop in Miami. Like, he's doing things. And I think that's part of what makes these people so entertaining.

[1:41:09] if someone wanted to like hack a success, you know, somehow, or like become a social media figure, like something I would recommend is like, [1:41:18] have a strong sense of place out in the physical world because I think there's like a real thirst for that even if we haven't like quite articulated it yet. [1:41:28] Wow, really interesting. You did a profile on him, though. I remember it came out. [1:41:34] Yeah, I wrote... [1:41:36] I profile is generous. I wrote, I had like an op-ed about him. Yeah. Um, I think like November, December. [1:41:45] That was my first touch point with him where I was like, okay, this is – [1:41:49] Catherine's on it. I'll dig in now. And this is that was my first first experience and it's gone. Yeah. I think one under discussed part about clavicular. [1:42:02] Or maybe not under discussed, but like I certainly... [1:42:05] I don't see a lot of headlines about it, is that he uses... [1:42:10] crystal meth like open like he says it and he and that's like very much a part of [1:42:16] like and he says it without shape and like not with pride but he certainly says it like [1:42:21] Casually. And I feel like that is perhaps the most toxic. [1:42:28] Part or certainly one at the top of the list of like how he's showing up for young men is also with. [1:42:35] crystal matthews like it's funny he's funny ha ha ha he's kind of this like jester maxing whatever but like

[1:42:41] I don't know that we should be talking about that with... [1:42:44] I don't know. Yeah, he's definitely like, I would say he's like toxic across like multiple. Yeah, totally. You shouldn't encourage anyone to what's you know, it's also really interesting is like, [1:42:57] A lot of women sort of have gone through this mindset that clavicular represents. And it's I would say it's like a spectrum, like you have people who are sort of like dip their toe into like pro Anna stuff online. And then it gets all the way up to like subreddits, which I think. [1:43:16] Now, like, man now, but Vindicta, which was like. [1:43:20] looks maxing subreddit for women. [1:43:22] There's many different communities about this and like, oh, your mid face is too long with that. Like that, that idea is something I wasn't introduced to, like, via incels, but they're like women who had like very harsh standards for themselves. [1:43:35] And the first time I heard about this stuff, it was called pink pill science. The idea that like women will only be evaluated on their looks and actually the standards are so much more unforgiving. [1:43:45] then, and this was like in the [1:43:47] 2000s. So like even then, right? [1:43:52] So, yeah. [1:43:54] it's, and it's, like, interesting to see it, like, come up for, for men now, and, like, women now, like, like, [1:44:01] I feel like even if you're not a full bore, like body positivity, there's been like, [1:44:07] a real backlash to [1:44:10] this kind of thinking both in the niche online sense, but also like how it showed up in the mainstream. Like I just watched the reality check the America's Next Top Model documentary.

[1:44:24] And I feel like there's like even women who kind of like tacitly endorse this type of thinking, like they know like this is wrong and toxic and it makes me unhappy. And like, I hate it. And like, maybe we shouldn't. And like, I'm going to go to South Korea and, you know, have cadaver collagen injected into me anyway. But also like, this is messed up. [1:44:46] Totally. It's been crazy to see the clips from America's Next Top Model and just be brought back to that time on... [1:44:55] uh, the internet and what I was raised on and in. And, uh, [1:45:01] I also think there's something... [1:45:03] It's interesting because... [1:45:05] I feel like all of the conversation around cosmetics and aesthetic optimization for women specifically, I can't speak to the men's experience, but is... [1:45:16] there's a, this new wave of a radical transparency around what people have done, how they're doing it, why they're doing it, whatever. Like you see the Kylie Jenner's and the Alex Earls and whatever talking about like exactly how they're, [1:45:30] breasts were augmented and like you know the doctor they went to and all of that um or like this influencer i felt like a lower bleph and here's what these [1:45:38] the three weeks of recovery looks like or whatever. And [1:45:41] I have such mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I think it's like so cool to just own that you, you, [1:45:48] have things that you have changed about yourself and to not, [1:45:52] be pretending that like a lot of the way that women show up in today's society is augmented in some capacity. Um,

[1:46:00] But then there's also this, like, there's an... [1:46:02] inherent permission that's given in having it be so... [1:46:08] transparent and discussed so publicly. And I think it's, um, yeah, it's, [1:46:14] normalizing in a way that like [1:46:17] when you take a step back from it, you're like, wait, hold on. Yeah. Totally. It's tough. I mean, I, you know, I think there's definitely like a steel man for plastic surgery. I think it actually, like we, in a way, I mean, I feel bad saying this, but like it does make, you know, in certain situations it makes people happier and having that control over your appearance is like not necessarily a bad thing. But there are so many like examples of it just like spiraling out of [1:46:47] which is what we see in clavicular, who it's like, [1:46:50] he i he like surely he knows he's like impacting his health i don't want to say he's cutting his life short because like there's you know who knows right but like he like i think what's disturbing about him like probably you know [1:47:02] particularly for like adults is like, he seems to know like, [1:47:07] I am hurting myself and like that cost is worth it to look at the way I do. [1:47:12] Thank you. [1:47:13] Dark. Which I think is what's disappeared for women. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [1:47:18] you know, it's like, you know, it's, there's still, there's still toxicity, but like maybe there's like more safety. I see a lot more like warnings. Yeah. Um, [1:47:28] Yeah. Whoa. Whoa. Interesting. Okay. I feel like we should end on maybe like a happier note. I'm curious what on the internet has brought you like joy recently.

[1:47:40] Um, [1:47:41] on so before I go to bed every night I do like an hour of TikTok which is maybe like embarrassing to just like freely admit but I keep getting like served these videos of like I think children who create these like photo collages of countries they've made up and the collages like are repurposing all those like ephemeral TikTok aesthetics or like weird nostalgia stuff and they they're like they're storytelling and they're like describing like this is what it's like to [1:48:11] this is what we eat this is what people wear that's so fun I love it so cute and I love them and there's so many of them um okay how do I start you had to get you had to drop as a link or something I want to yeah I'll like go through my I I fave like all of them they all have like 20 you know 20 likes but yeah I'll go through and find them um but it's like a really like speaking of play it's a really like sweet expression of play [1:48:37] Yeah. Well, I really love that. Catherine, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure to have you on. We love your writing and your tweeting so much. And so I'm so honored to have gotten some time with you. [1:48:49] Thanks for having me. Have a great day. [1:48:52] Bye. See you later. Bye. [1:48:54] Wow. Fun, fun conversation. I just want to say, I know, I know clavicular is toxic. I, I only brought up the crystal meth stuff as one thing. He's racist. He's sexist. Like there's, he's a hateful person on many levels. And I just want to just set the record stage. You heard it here first. He's one part of it. I guess part, I guess my point is that like,

[1:49:24] as like a [1:49:25] punchline. [1:49:27] And like, [1:49:29] he shouldn't be for all of these reasons and i like i don't know i think that's kind of what i got absolutely red to fill up this weekend um i was with some [1:49:37] people, young men who are Gen Z and... [1:49:41] I was like, so do you guys like watch the clavicular stream? [1:49:45] Uh-huh. And they were like, boomer. Like, literally were like, boomer. And I was like, what? And they're like, nobody watches the stream. Like, nobody watches the stream. Yeah, yeah. [1:49:55] It's just the clips. Like, we're just watching the clips. Like, that's... [1:49:58] honestly embarrassing and i was like look i'm 33 years old like give me a fucking break okay like totally totally young honestly if you did know that that would be embarrassing that if you do [1:50:09] Thank you. Thank you. I also think that like there's, [1:50:14] Another way into the story, which I saw someone do this past week, was about the economy of the clips farming that surrounds him and that there's the clip farming... [1:50:24] movement industry, cottage industry, [1:50:27] like can, um, like choose their, like choose winners and heroes. And like, that's kind of what they, there, there's a, they did. [1:50:35] There's a machine behind it. [1:50:37] yeah, his, him and his clips that has made a lot of those clippers a lot of money. And I think that that's like part of, [1:50:44] the rise for him and I'm sure there'll be a countless number of [1:50:48] Equally, if not more problematic, people behind him. [1:50:51] Doing the same thing? I can't wait. [1:50:54] I can't wait. One thing that I do want to say that I, she brought up the, the story, the feel good story about the kids making up countries. I have been seeing, and I watch

[1:51:06] every single one of them that comes over my feed, this, [1:51:10] really stupid very very stupid and also problematic and like very it's it's [1:51:17] it's problematic on many levels, um, form of a tick tock video, AI edit, which is, um, it takes a, uh, [1:51:28] a famous person and does... [1:51:31] uh transitions to this is what this famous person would look like if they lived oh you said me this in the oh i said you i said you i said you i said you the donald trump one and you said it to me and honestly i have to tell you do not oh i'll explain what it is okay so it it's like here's [1:51:52] Uh... [1:51:54] This is what he would look like if he was from Korea. This is what Donald Trump would look like if he was from Korea. This is what Donald Trump would look like if he was from India. This is what Donald Trump would look like. And also, in addition to changing the way he looks and his race, they also change his name. So it's like they give him like the Korean... [1:52:15] kind of name that sounds like donald trump except it's like in korean yeah and um i've seen here's the ones i've seen so far i have seen um donald trump i watched that whole thing end to end i watched um sydney sweeney had one that went really viral that kate also i'm seeing her in the chat kate watched that one hilarious they're so funny and then also this morning i watched michael b jordan that was a really interesting one they made him go around the world and justin bieber um

[1:52:41] And they brought him everywhere. Kate just says Snoop Dogg. Kate just says Snoop Dogg. I have not seen the Snoop Dogg one. You have to send me the Snoop Dogg. I don't know what it is about these videos. They are like catnip for me. I will... I know. They really are. I... You watch it. [1:52:53] You sent it to me, and I have to be honest with you, I watched... [1:52:57] just just the first just to get the premise and then I was like I'm not watching totally totally I respect that I don't know what it is why what hey did you give me a thumbs up thumbs down did you watch it [1:53:09] yeah she watched she's locked in um okay one quick thing in the manosphere news um [1:53:15] There's like the number two ranked Chad guy. I think you should maybe pull this up. He was in some like college town streaming and another... [1:53:28] person pulled off his hat uh that had hair in it so it was [1:53:35] that he was wearing a wig. And it's being called a generational aura fail. Like it's being like, [1:53:43] They're saying that it's over for him. I personally... [1:53:48] think that this is staged. Totally. I totally would do. [1:53:51] and he's like I'm going to Turkey and I'm like oh he probably has some like paid partnership with some Turkey [1:53:57] like aesthetic clinic and it's all, there was a creative brief and he did execute on it. He did. He did. But you got to follow the money in moments like this. And number two rings, Chad has to go get some, he's unemployable.

[1:54:13] So do your job now. Okay. Well, I feel a little bit of guilt for giving so much space and airtime to... [1:54:23] those men, but whatever. It is what it is. Next week we'll have some sort of palate cleanser. [1:54:28] And by those men, I mean, obviously clavicular and Chad. Oh, totally. Yeah. Okay. Just to be clear. I loved all of our guests today. I thought they were great. Me too. Me too. Okay. I'm going to go get into my heels and my dress. Yeah. I want to see your bow out and blazer. [1:54:43] Put a kitten heel on. I will. Get a nice little ring curl going. [1:54:48] And let us know how it goes. I will. We'll see you next week. Okay. Bye.