Ep: 216 - "Chinese Peptides" Explainer with Zak David of Peptide Partners

[00:00] Dumb Shower is a weekly live chat on all things tech, crypto and pop culture news brought to you by Boys Club, a New York based media and creative studio. DBH is hosted by myself, Tina Burke and Natasha Hoskins. Hi. Co-founders, marketers and entrepreneurs that have built our careers in new tech and startups. We're also proudly the dumbest in the room and we love to learn in public. DBH is recorded live and best consumed as a video podcast. Here's this week's show. [00:27] you [00:31] Welcome to Boys Club Live. We have been doing this in person for the past couple weeks. We are remote today. [00:37] Because we have a special episode that we felt like we just had to do. [00:42] We couldn't wait to be able to do it in person. Mm-hmm. [00:46] And we're going to be talking about peptides today. [00:50] Before we get into it. [00:51] Just how's it going? [00:53] How are you doing? Great. It's great. [00:57] It's been a busy week. I was in... [01:01] Nashville earlier this week with you and Miranda, which was really nice. And then, uh, went to smart con on Wednesday and great. A lot of smart people. [01:15] very high fidelity event. [01:19] Lots of interesting... [01:22] institutional conversations. Um, [01:26] So that was nice. And now we're here. Kate's been in Asia.

[01:31] For a few weeks, she's back. We're so happy to have Kate back. So, so happy to have Kate back. We're headed to Buenos Aires for DevConnect in two weeks. We're going to be throwing a party on the 18th with Pod Network, Polygon. We're going to also have some other pals there, Privy, Blockade. [01:50] As ever, [01:52] RSVP early, space is limited. Don't be texting me day of, hey, I want to get off the list. I want to get on the list. Don't do that. That's unkind. We've grown past that. [02:02] And I will not be taking those texts. RCP now, and you'll get in. That's all. She's setting some boundaries. She's laying down the law. [02:11] - Yeah. [02:12] Don't do it. You heard it here. Don't do it. Don't come. [02:15] Don't come. How are you? What's going on with you? Any... [02:20] I'm good. I have my my water. I also I got this magazine. I got it, too. It's beautifully done. [02:29] Thank you. [02:30] Really, they spent a lot of money. Did you give my address to somebody? [02:33] Did you compare that? [02:34] Yeah, I know. I know you did too. Yeah. I know. I know where I just went. I can tell you off the stream, but yes, we are not doxxed. [02:43] What I like is the investment in the paperweight. Paperweight is nice. And we know that that's not cheap. Produced magazines. Yeah, we know that that's not cheap. Full color. [02:52] Beautiful. [02:54] really gorgeous photography, gorgeous design. I want to, they spent a lot of money on this. [03:00] They spent a lot of money on this. If they would like to spend a lot of money...

[03:04] with us [redacted email]. [03:08] But it looks great. I'm excited to dig into some of the writing. I saw Amanda Cassatt is in there, so I'm excited to read her piece. Oh, great. I'm very much looking forward to seeing a lot of those friends. [03:19] Thank you. [03:20] in Buenos Aires. Okay. Should we talk about peptides? I think we should. Okay. Um, I think, [03:29] Our friend is joining us in a few minutes. Yeah. So we're going to join by Zach David, who is the founder of peptide partners. We'll do a [03:38] felt compelled to do this episode today because there's just been so much chat about peptides. And specifically, so there's the peptides, which when we say peptide, you can think of ozempic. Ozempic's a kind of peptide, and we're going to get into the definition of peptides on the show. And [03:57] I was on pick. [03:58] is what it is. It's one of what it is. It's one of what it is. Yeah. But there's a whole... [04:05] spectrum of peptides that do lots of other things. There's like hair and nails peptides, there's longevity peptides, there's [04:13] Muscle stuff. [04:15] repair and regeneration. There's like neuromodular peptides. There's like a whole [04:24] spectrum of peptides. [04:27] They are, that are being researched and developed right now. It's like in the R&D phase, it's in the research phase, and that's happening.

[04:35] And Zach said, [04:37] Really quick, let me just say a few things for people. [04:42] For my understanding is that peptides like Ozempic or a GLP-1, you take... [04:50] like you would. So you're injecting it. And so [04:53] There's [04:54] a lot [04:56] that can be said about that. There's a lot that can be said about peptides in general. Do we want to get into our disclaimer first or do we want to talk about who's joining us? [05:04] Let's get into our disclaimer. Okay. A few things that we just want to disclaim. We're seeing a lot of this on the timeline. We're seeing a lot of conversations around it in group chats. And a lot of these conversations are... [05:19] people who are myself included, [05:22] Very pro science, pro innovation, high risk tolerance around, um, [05:29] around new [05:30] early adopter behavior and [05:34] I think it's super interesting and I'm really curious about it. I want to learn about it. I want to find a place that I can... [05:39] understand it and understand what people are putting into their bodies [05:43] I have not found many places that I feel like I accessibly can understand what's happening. [05:50] Yeah. Can learn about what's happening with peptides. Can learn about it. Yeah. And learn about how people are using it and why people are using it and what the benefits are, what the downsides are, what the risks are. That has been... [06:01] been [06:02] sort of unclear to me. And so,

[06:05] you were like, [06:07] we should do an episode about it and we should give some space and some air to talk about this and have this conversation in a place that feels very boys club. Um, that's what we're doing here. Two things I will say before you do, I do want to say just to be clear, Ozempic is FDA approved. [06:23] The stuff that we're going to be talking about today is not FDA approved. [06:26] Yeah. [06:27] there's a world where it could be at some point, but we're definitely in like, [06:31] we're in fringes, non FDA approved stuff. That's what we're going to be talking about today. [06:36] what are known as Chinese peptides. We're going to talk about why they're Chinese peptides on the show, but [06:41] just making a distinction between Ozempic, FDA approved, and the peptides that we're going to be talking about today, which are [06:46] in the R&D phase, not yet FDA approved. [06:49] Totally. Great, great shout. The other thing that I'll say is this is not an endorsement of Chinese Pesda. It's not an endorsement. [06:59] We, this is for research purposes only. [07:02] we are learning about it and wanting people to have a space to learn about it. I think people should do whatever they want to do with their bodies. I have no judgment on people who are using Chinese peptides, who are experimenting with them. That's a hundred percent their decision, their choice, their body, their choice. And I'm curious about what that looks like. And so that's what we're doing here today. [07:25] Yeah. But I'm not saying go out and start injecting yourself with Chinese peptides if you don't want to. Totally. I think part of what, uh,

[07:35] part of what has [07:37] been driving me to make the show happen is have been seeing a lot of conversation about peptides, a lot of conversation about quote unquote Chinese peptides. [07:46] on [07:46] social media and very few [07:50] mainstream media outlets that are willing to touch it. [07:54] because it's a gray market, so I know why, but it seems as though there's this whole thing that's happening on the internet. [08:01] And yet there's not a... [08:04] like complimentary conversation that's happening [08:07] in the media. I will say shout out to Zara from the SF standard who did a great piece about peptides [08:16] specifically the peptide scene in San Francisco that we'll drop in the comments. Um, she, it was, yeah, really great story. Well-researched. And, uh, so she, there's definitely like some stuff that's coming through, but for the most part, like [08:30] Yeah, it's... [08:32] It's a gray market. There's it's French. [08:35] It's French. Yeah. It's French stuff. Um, and [08:40] I... [08:42] I think that... [08:45] I have a new computer and it's honestly like so much more high tech than my previous computer. It's like, you're moving a lot. And I'm like, okay, that's great. Um, [08:57] So, but do I sound okay, Kate? You sound great. Yeah, you sound great. I have a link issue with our guest. So actually, let me... [09:05] Okay. I just want to talk about something in, in related to FDA, non FDA FDA approved things that, so I've,

[09:15] I just feel I should disclose. I've not taken it, gotten on the Chinese peptide train. I haven't [09:21] taken them, but I do, I have, I have, [09:24] gone to Seoul and put [09:27] non-FDA approved substances into my face. And the results were incredible. [09:35] And it's really interesting to see there's versions of what I did in Korea that are now have come to the States and are FDA approved. And all that to say, I think that it's interesting to see sort of like, [09:50] There's [09:51] like look [09:53] maxing, there's longevity, there's like, um, weight loss. There's all these different, like, different sort of like, [10:00] reasons why people are doing these things. And I think Chinese peptides is one version of the conversation, but there's also a conversation that's been happening almost, I would say for a longer period of time around like, uh, cosmetic beauty treatments and it's adjacent to this conversation. And so it's certainly adjacent. Yeah. [10:18] So that's great. Just quickly before we bring Zach onto the stage, a quick shout out to our sponsor, [10:28] Polygon. [10:29] Thank you so much Polygon for supporting. [10:32] this live stream, this podcast. If you've touched crypto in any way, chances are you've already used Polygon. It's the chain quietly powering a bunch of stuff that actually works, that people actually use, like Stripe's crypto payments, betting on Polymarkets, prediction markets, and a

[10:47] We love Polygon. They're great partners doing a lot of work in payments and stable coins and really just like right at the edge of where the innovation is happening in the industry. So we love them. And that's that. Should we bring up Zach? Let's bring up Zach. Okay, great. [11:05] Thank you. [11:06] Boop. Hi. Hi, how are you doing? All right. I'm sorry I missed my check. So, oh, no worries. Also, I sent you a bad link. So that's totally on me. My bad. How are you doing today? [11:22] Good, good. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. We're so excited to have you. So let me just do a little quick intro and then we can jump into it. I have a lot that I want to chat with you about. So Zach David, the founder of Peptide Partners, which is a site that sells imported peptides from China for research purposes. The peptides are not FDA approved, therefore not fit for human consumption. Zach was previously a high frequency trader and machine learning startup founder and has now found his way to [11:51] to the peptide industry. I have some notes here. [11:55] pharmacy technician at a major retail chain with experience in compounding. So that's where you were before you started your career in finance. And then yeah, co recipient of a DARPA grant on how [12:07] uh models of macro economic agents behave in the presence of realistic financial market simulations okay so [12:14] That was a very academic. Beautiful mind stuff happening there. That was a lot of fun and nobody knows what it means. So.

[12:23] Not a clue, but it sounds very impressive. And yeah, just really excited to chat. You have a really interesting business. Welcome to the show. [12:32] Thank you. [12:32] Thank you very much. [12:33] Okay, so we want to get into, I want to talk about your background, your history, like how you found your way to peptides is a really interesting story. But before we do that, I do want to give folks a brief explainer on what a peptide is and what they are used for. [12:52] um before we get into that i just want to tell people if they have questions [12:56] please leave them in the comments and we will review them for later. But you just click into the video and then that's where you can leave comments. [13:06] Okay. [13:07] Great. Back to you. [13:09] All right. So we can say a peptide is a short chain of amino acids, where short is a somewhat arbitrary definition. But the FDA... [13:21] definition does coincide with how I think biophysicists typically think of it. The cutoff [13:30] for the FDA-regulated definition is about a chain of 40 or less amino acids. And this, the lobbying for the change of definition started in about 1998 and, sorry, 2018. And the formal definition was changed in 2020. I don't think it's a coincidence that peptides like Ozempic, Munjaro,

[13:53] the retitrutide that everyone is using all happen to be exactly 39 in length. So what that means is it's a little bit easier for those peptides to get approved as regular drugs rather than what are known as biologics, which carry a much more stringent set of regulations and regulatory overhead. [14:17] So, [14:18] due to their short length, [14:20] Peptides are less likely to fold, if anyone's familiar with the alpha folding and protein predictions of the Google AI projects. [14:32] these chains get larger and larger they fold and they're which means they're [14:38] more likely to misfold. [14:39] So, I have some, I have some, okay, keep going. Please, please interrupt at any time. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, um, just to make sure I'm tracking, uh, uh, a peptide is a string of amino acids. [14:51] Yep. [14:51] Okay. And then [14:53] which peptides are FDA approved at this point are decided on the length of that strain of amino acids. So the cutoff that was changed in 2020 is 40 or less. It was a new definition that was brought in. Prior to then, any chain of amino acids was considered a protein. [15:12] and they all had to abide by the laws governing biologics. [15:19] Okay. And so the... [15:21] peptides that [15:23] are, I guess this is maybe not the right way of saying it, but common or FDA approved. So that's like Ozempic,

[15:30] semaglutide probably maybe and yeah so it was um so yeah um [15:36] maybe for the further benefit of your listeners, all drugs, [15:40] when they're first created, they have a brand name and a generic name. [15:45] Sometimes they have multiple brand names under the same generic name, so like Ozempic, [15:51] The generic name is semaglutide. [15:53] We got Munjaro, the generic name is Trzapatite. [15:58] And this is, [16:00] This is so that when the patent expires, generic manufacturers are able to produce it under [16:08] under the generic name rather than infringing upon the brand name. [16:14] Okay, so those are [16:16] FDA approved because they... [16:20] Because they're 39... [16:23] a string of 39 amino acids. [16:26] Well, they're approved because they went through [16:28] multiple phase trials of proving safety, proving efficacy, and longevity in terms of being- Totally. There's all these things that had to happen for them to become FDA approved. [16:41] that but the distinction between when people are talking about peptides that [16:46] Chinese peptides that are not FDA approved versus these other ones that are [16:51] one of the distinctions that you're speaking to is that [16:55] the length of the amino acid in them. Is that correct or no?

[17:01] Yes. I mean, most of the Chinese peptides that people are getting are, or we could say, biologically equivalent to [17:09] know they're they're they're selling people semaglutide which is you know it is the same sequence of amino acids okay um but [17:19] they do not fall under what are called current good manufacturing practices, which is a very end-to-end, very stringent and audited [17:29] trail of efficacy and safety. And so that's why it is much riskier. [17:37] market, this great, the great market that everyone has been very interested in lately. [17:41] Okay. Okay. That makes sense. And some of these, uh, just in terms of like what, [17:47] peptides, what some of these other peptides are doing. Like we are familiar with the Olympics of the world and and [17:54] roughly how they work and what they're doing for people. I think there's a familiarity there. Some of these other ones are [18:00] like longevity, muscle repair, hair and nails, like what are some of the other worlds that these are starting to touch some of these other peptides? [18:09] Yeah. So this is sort of a renaissance of peptides. They did have a heyday and a lot of scientific interest in the early 90s. Late 80s is early 90s, especially in the growth hormone analogs. So things like sermoral and tesamoral, which are both FDA approved, but have been abandoned by their main manufacturers so that you can only get them from compounding pharmacies now.

[18:39] Their functions are for stimulating growth hormone, and one was meant for pediatric patients, one was meant for fatty liver disease. [18:51] and HIV patients, there is a list [18:55] in the current regime, [18:57] There is a list [18:58] that the FDA keeps for [19:01] Peptides that are proposed to be generally safe [19:05] that companies can sponsor. They have a three column [19:09] system where [19:11] The first column are things either approved or under investigation. The second column are things that are perhaps don't have sufficient evidence and the you know the last column are things that are [19:25] they've determined are not safe enough. [19:29] And this is a result of a [19:34] what's called the New England Compounding Center viral menace out or meningitis outbreak was a so but when I was working as a pharmacy technician in 2007 and eight, this was the conditions that [19:49] I had done compounding under would not be considered sterile under current regulatory regime, and for good reason. [19:58] This New England Compounding Center sickened a lot of people and caused some deaths, and that led to the current Drug Quality and Safety Act, where... [20:09] that created the current regulatory environment for how things get approved.

[20:13] Okay. [20:14] So, and when did that happen? [20:16] That outbreak occurred in 2012, I believe the [20:21] Regulations became law in 2013. [20:24] Okay. And so in 2013, there was sort of like a new set of rules that were laid out for how drugs were [20:33] approved and [20:35] by the FDA. [20:37] Is that like kind of what it's in? Yeah, but it was more so a framework and it's been ongoing since then. Yeah. So. And the framework that you were speaking of, of these three different categories of like unsafe, like untested, not tested, and then enough, I guess, and then approved. [20:54] Is that fair? Right. And there are very few from that original nomination lists that have actually been approved. I think it's, I think, you know, you can count on them with one hand. So there are still about three dozen under evaluation. There are, in September 2023, it was called kind of the peptide Armageddon, which was a very... [21:18] So a lot of practices, a lot of medical practices [21:22] that use [21:25] like a dozen, dozen and a half particular peptides, all of them got put on this do not compound list. [21:33] And it caused a big... [21:36] Big problem for her. [21:37] for certain types of medical practices. Peptide Armageddon is a very funny thing, very funny concept. Let's talk a little bit about the sort of cultural movement that you're seeing around peptides. And I guess related to that, like,

[21:50] why you came to start Peptide Partners. Like, tell us a little bit about sort of the momentum that you're seeing and sort of how you came to it. [21:58] i mean i don't want to romanticize like my personal history about it but you know i was uh i was in very poor health about three years ago and i started seeing a specialist in the uh functional medicine longevity space dr fabiani here in sarasota florida shout out very good gotta give her a shout out and [22:19] She was very open to experimentation and [22:23] After a few months, I noticed that [22:27] These things are definitely working. However, insurance does not like to pay for them. And [22:34] It was a lot out of pocket. [22:36] on a perpetual angel investor's salary, it's hard to pay out of pocket for those kinds of things. So I did a little supply chain sleuthing and started to get a little more involved in this world. That was a mix of gray market and a mix of a legitimate market because [22:57] Luckily, [23:00] a friend who [23:02] lives in China had she just happened to have 20 years of experience working in contract manufacturing labs. And so I was able to sort of get a very crash course introduction to the different types of the worlds here. And [23:17] What ended up happening is that [23:19] I started developing

[23:22] some supply chains and found [23:25] points of ingress that allowed me to [23:29] obtain things at 80%, 90% cheaper than what you could get from [23:34] typical compounding pharmacies. And I decided to take it upon myself to do some self-experimentation. [23:43] I've heard you say compounding pharmacies a few times. Can you just like give a really [23:47] What is a compounding pharmacy? Is that just like a D to C? [23:52] Pharmacy? Right. So, um, [23:56] I guess the definition has certainly changed over the regulatory regime, but compounding, as you could say, typically it involves changing any drug form. [24:06] from what is approved. [24:09] to something that [24:11] is different for a specific patient. [24:14] Okay. [24:15] Yeah. [24:16] So say, say, [24:19] For an example, when I did a compounding for anti-rejection meds for pediatric kidney transplant patient, you know, he couldn't swallow pills because he was 11. And so. [24:32] had to make a suspension of not only the drug but also [24:37] you know, make it weaker. [24:39] because it wasn't available in pediatric form. And so we made a liquid out of it. And spending, so that was not only very expensive, and the insurance company didn't want to pay for it, but, you know, it was, it made it palpable for, you know,

[24:55] All right. [24:56] you know the patient to be able to take it okay that makes sense and so it's [25:01] Interesting, your own personal history and sort of... [25:04] like traditional medicine, not being able to support the health issues that you were confronted with, and then finding sort of these alternative forms of medicine that were [25:14] that have improved your health. And I think along... [25:18] that what I've been seeing over the past year around, there's like all of these converging things that I think are happening in culture, specifically, like when I say culture, I'm saying [25:29] Twitter, tech Twitter. So let's just get back there. Like, uh, this corner of the internet that I exist in that there's like the longevity movement. There's sort of like, um, [25:41] this distrust for institutions and certainly the sort of idea that people think that they have more agency in their health and in the decisions that they're making, I think, over the course of the last few years. So [25:58] all of those things combined along with, I think, the general [26:02] movement over the post-COVID era of people feeling like they... [26:09] injecting themselves or [26:11] taking a GLP-1 has become so much more common and has sort of hit mainstream in a way that like [26:18] seven or eight years ago, I don't think people were talking about. All of those things combined, I think has given [26:24] Chinese peptides, at least on the timeline, this like

[26:27] it's become normalized. It's become much more common. And I'm seeing people talk about it all the time. And I am curious your experience of [26:36] what you've seen as like, [26:39] a [26:41] change in [26:43] change, step change in your business that has happened over the last few years. [26:49] Yeah, I mean, this market has clearly been about almost two orders of magnitude larger than I could have imagined when we got into it. Like you said, so there are cardinal virtues of bioethical principles and there's autonomy, which is a respect for an individual's choice that they can make for themselves. Non-malfeasance, or what we know as first do no harm, justice, which is an equal, an [27:16] distribution given people in the same situation and beneficence which is to act in the best interests of our patient's health and you know even though these these principles are supposed to not be hierarchical [27:31] I believe in the US, we sort of value autonomy over everything else by far. [27:39] And this autonomy [27:43] I guess you could call it a revolution, is really driving what is going on here. [27:48] And we are [27:50] We're seeing people wanting to take [27:54] advantage. [27:55] of their own healthcare because

[27:59] people are sick of [28:01] I guess how they're being treated. Yeah, I think there's like this distrust in [28:07] the pharmaceutical industry, certainly in the healthcare system in America as well. Like, I think there's a convergence of all of these things that are making it [28:17] more palatable for people to take their healthcare into their own hands. And this [28:24] at this. [28:25] movement around peptides and around Chinese peptides specifically, I think is coming from that place of people saying like, okay, this, the current systems that exist are not set up for, uh, [28:38] actually my benefit and my health. They're set up for all of these other, um, [28:42] basically profit. [28:44] and revenue for these pharmaceutical companies. And so what can I do to... And insurance companies. [28:50] Yes, absolutely. And I think [28:53] There's also this movement that happened around vaccines and people sort of making decisions around their health. [28:59] post-COVID that I think was [29:01] definitely, at least for me, completely new exposure to how people were making decisions around what they [29:07] were and were not going to put into their body. And [29:11] Anyway, I think all of these things have led up to this moment. And so, [29:15] My understanding of why people are taking these is there's a few different categories. There's categories for... [29:21] that. [29:21] health issues, people having like legitimate health issues and wanting to, and alternative medicine being a path that they, the only path that has worked for them.

[29:30] Another category is like looks maxing people wanting to lose weight, people wanting to [29:36] look more beautiful, like skin, hair, nails, that sort of world for women. [29:42] And generally, [29:44] For men, it's like muscle growth, [29:46] Wolverine stack is something I've heard a few times. And yeah, like, [29:53] bodybuilding, like sort of like I want to look like a superhero type thing. I see that a lot on Twitter as well. And then sort of this last category that I see is like longevity and mixed in there sort of like cognitive recall and... [30:08] that sort of thing. So those are the different categories that I've seen. I'm curious if that checks out to you or if there's been other categories that you have been seeing or that are common. [30:17] I mean, I think you've nailed all the major ones that people are really interested in right now. [30:21] But it's also like they're like, I want to be hot. I want to be smart. I want to live a long time forever. [30:29] It's you know, it's it's also somewhat important to note that [30:34] Thank you. [30:35] In terms of longitudinal studies on these, [30:40] they [30:41] Mm-hmm. [30:42] There aren't [30:43] There aren't a lot of high quality [30:45] you know, randomized control trials. There are [30:49] a lot of good [30:51] studies in terms of safety and [30:55] but not efficacy. So for example, there's a popular one. And by that you mean safety, but not, when you say efficacy, like how much they actually work.

[31:05] Right. [31:06] Yeah, exactly. A good example is a popular one called AOD 9604, which supposedly, in rat studies, [31:18] produced a lot of weight loss very quickly. And there were [31:22] a half dozen human trial follow-ups that [31:27] produced no significant results at all. But they're still sold. And I think there's some unethical things about that. I think we have enough evidence to say that it doesn't really work. [31:43] But it's still being sold on a lot of sites. [31:46] Yeah, that's sort of my... [31:49] I mean, I have so many questions and concerns around all this, but I think the thing for me is like, it feels like a very easy industry for someone to just be a snake oil salesman. And like more than injecting something that's going to harm me, I'm like, I'm just buying stuff and... [32:06] it's like whether this is true or not, my like trust in the FDA and trust in a pharmacy and like picking something up at Duane Reade, I know that like, okay, this is probably what I... [32:20] what I'm buying is probably what I'm putting in my body. And that is a trust that I have for like sort of these institutions, I guess. And I think, [32:28] that [32:29] It seems like such this whole industry of Chinese peptides feels like a very easy industry to just sell people saline solution or whatever it is that. And like you, you thinking that having some placebo effect around like, oh, this is really working. And and it's it's requiring like a trust in.

[32:49] Yeah. In individuals, I guess. [32:52] Yeah, that's why you have these nice sites like Finric, which is a recent site that's been offering to-- [33:00] evaluate and accept peptides and test them for free and grade different providers. They've got over 100 different providers that they've graded for a variety of peptides. And they have a scoring system. [33:15] And I've had [33:17] very long, sometimes heated conversations with them about like, [33:22] What's the best way to evaluate things? And, you know, I think they truly believe in their mission. And, you know, that's why we support them a lot. And just to make sure that I'm understanding, there's like... [33:34] There are... [33:35] suppliers in [33:37] China, and I'm curious about why it's in China, but like there's, there's, um, [33:42] factories in China producing these different peptides. And then there are [33:49] And they are, for research purposes only, they're not made to be... [33:55] Thank you. [33:56] for people to medically make a cocktail for themselves. [34:00] produced that way. And then there are suppliers in the US that are reselling those products. [34:08] being produced in China. And then what you're saying is there's third parties within the US that are taking those products and testing them for [34:15] efficacy, testing them to say like, okay, if this is supposed to be this many milligrams of this substance, how much of it is actually that? Is that correct? Yeah.

[34:24] Yeah. Most sites that you can purchase your research, your research peptides from, they will have certificates of analysis. Okay. Okay. [34:35] from on their sites. But it's nice that there are others [34:41] sites that are auditing the auditors. [34:44] Yeah. So there's [34:47] There is a nice ecosystem that's slowly developing over this past year. [34:52] about that. [34:54] Can we talk about testing? So you guys do some testing. Tell me about the different tests that you guys do. [35:01] Okay, so the standard is purity and what's called a say. [35:07] Um, [35:08] the purity and [35:10] is that percentage number that does you help your, the peptide of question, assuming that it's correctly identified. [35:20] is, and then the essay is how much mass [35:25] of that peptide is in the vial. Okay. So those are those are the two main ones. A lot of people for a long time, those were the only two things that you could get. [35:37] When we came in and [35:40] and started doing endotoxin screening in May and early June. That kind of threw a little bit of a monkey wrench in [35:50] in the industry because we said, all right,

[35:54] uh we were just listening to customer feedback about it like [35:57] "Do you have endotoxin screening?" I said, "You know what? [36:01] We're going to work with a lab and we have some good friends at what's called Trust Point Labs. They're based in Michigan. Very good. [36:09] and [36:10] Then this next week, we're going to be coming out with the heavy metals testing, which they developed with a fellow lab based off of an EPA test. [36:23] for water samples [36:25] and then backed that out into figuring out how to test it for our peptide samples. [36:32] And I think, you know, [36:34] So now over the past few months, [36:38] you will see almost every site. [36:40] doing endotoxin screening now. [36:42] Everyone's doing independent COAs. [36:44] And I think by early next year, [36:46] everyone's going to be doing heavy metal screening as well. [36:48] And we're just going to keep pushing [36:51] for higher and higher standards. [36:53] Okay, so this is how I see Chinese peptides. You might not know this reference, but... [36:58] Probably 10 years ago, there was this beauty company [37:02] called The Ordinary. [37:03] Does that ring a bell? [37:05] No problem. It's totally fine. And The Ordinary was this company where this guy who worked in beauty [37:19] skincare production for years was basically like all of this skincare is a few different types of

[37:25] like compounded substances. It's repackaged, it's branded, and then it sold to you for 100x what it actually costs to produce this thing. And so he started this company called The Ordinary. And The Ordinary was all of these different products that was just the main substance, like the compound substance of the product. So it's like, [37:46] for a vitamin C serum. It was like, okay, this is like the purest form of this vitamin C, but you're going to want to combine it with these other [37:56] um, these other substances for it to be like most efficient or most effective for your skin. And it was super cheap. It was like $5 for this, $3 for this. Like it was like, but you had to go in and it was like, it felt like you were in a science class. It was like, this is like pH two, three, nine, seven. And then this is like, and you're just in there and it's totally impenetrable. But like people who were super into skincare were like, I'm going to do [38:24] figure it out, do my research and have a custom skincare for me. That's a quarter of the price of what it would be to go to Lancome or [38:34] whatever it is, glossier, whatever. And [38:38] I'm sort of like, that's the era we're living in right now with peptides, where it's like, you go to these different websites and you're like, okay, well, these are like the pure... [38:47] substance that is an active ingredient in whatever other [38:53] cocktail that is FDA approved or not. And you are doing your own as an individual, you're doing your own research and creating your own custom sort of package for

[39:05] your health or for your goals or whatever it is. And there's a, there's a lot of risk in that, but it's like, you're taking your own personal, [39:14] knowledge, you're trusting your own personal [39:16] research skills and knowledge and autonomy and making that decision for yourself. [39:21] And that's sort of the like the [39:24] the clearest [39:25] comp that I can, that I can see. Does that check out to you at all? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It makes, you know, perfect sense to, to what is up to what I feel like is going on here. Okay. It was taking, taking things into their own hands. [39:41] And people are doing a great amount of research. Aside from all the websites that you can order from, there are Telegram groups. [39:52] stuff on different discords. And people do group buys. [39:58] But still, there still is a lot of bad information out there. So having a trusted source and having someone who is dedicated to testing is a big boom. I read about, and I think this was in Zara from the SF Standard, people buying... [40:15] as a group and then testing themselves. [40:18] Like there being this movement around like, [40:21] taking even the testing into their own hands. And like someone from that group doing the testing and then like dispersing the results out to [40:30] the rest of the people in their group who have a specific batch. Which is-- Yeah. If you can get it, yeah. If you can guarantee that it's all coming from the same batch,

[40:39] Sometimes there are labs that I wouldn't trust with results. We deny [40:47] results from certain labs because the USP standards for labs that are based in the US are far superior to what you're going to get in Eastern European country. [41:00] I see. Okay, tell us about how your [41:03] and you might not want to share this because it's kind of how the sausage is made, but like how you're sourcing [41:08] what the relationship is like with the manufacturers in China and like how you're sourcing and what that's been like to sort of navigate that world. [41:17] So I kind of have a, you know, we have a foot in both the, I guess, the white market and the gray market, because we are working on, you know, a phase two, which was actually our original business model to provide, you know, a fully compliant supply chain for physician services. And that's what we're going to try to do early next year. Cool. But in terms of the gray market, yeah. [41:47] time and then over about two and a half years, almost three years, we just created a vetting [41:55] and sort of a way of weeding out what seems fake, what seems untrustworthy. But then at the end of the day, you have to [42:04] you have to buy and you have to test and you need to test from labs that you trust. So ones that are using reference standards, ones that are calibrating their instruments, ones that will talk to you at length in extremely nerdy terms about how they created their testing procedures. And those are that's to me, that's the good stuff. That's.

[42:25] - Coming from my background, yeah, I love that. - I feel like the term Chinese peptides are sort of just a catch-all [42:32] for [42:33] non-FDA approved peptides. [42:36] Is that fair or no? [42:38] Like, are they all coming from China? [42:39] I believe most of them are. I've talked to labs in India, in South America, in South Africa, but a lot of them were trying to... [42:52] focus on [42:55] some of the IP in terms of like the auto injectors rather than the peptides themselves. Okay. The labs in China, they just, [43:02] They have a very high talent ratio. Recently, we've been focused on-- our preferred manufacturers as of recent are ones that do make things in-house because we want things to be made to our own specifications. And there's so much talent there. [43:22] It's really good. [43:23] I understand that [43:25] this is a relatively new business, a new startup for you. Where have you seen the most traction [43:32] at a product level and like what has surprised you most [43:35] into building your business so far? [43:39] From day one, Reddit TruTide by far has been the biggest seller. It's over 80% of our sales. And that's a GLP three, right? [43:48] Yeah, that's okay. [43:50] That's... [43:51] That is what everybody wants. And so we've been trying really hard to just make sure that the

[43:59] quality and is consistent and [44:02] The efficacy is great. [44:04] Do you anticipate that [44:07] I'm sorry, what's it called again? [44:09] Thank you. [44:09] Retru- [44:12] Yeah. Do you anticipate that will be FDA approved? [44:16] I'm not going to hold you to it. Just curious if you think. [44:21] Given my, so when I first started to get into finance, one of my early mentors was a biotech investor. And one of his phrases was, you know, [44:31] if you could predict [44:33] what the FDA would approve and not approved. There are [44:37] many, many funds who will add multiple zeros to that person's paycheck. Mm-hmm. Okay. [44:42] But so far from the trial results, it looks like it might, it has a good chance and it will become the next FDA gold standard. [44:52] Okay. Interesting. [44:53] Okay, when we spoke last week, you had talked about some de-platforming that you were experiencing. Do you feel comfortable sharing some of that? Let's see. Okay, sorry. Sure. [45:09] You know, I can I will briefly mention that. [45:12] are [45:13] one of the largest [45:15] cloud [45:16] provider corporations received a letter from, um, [45:21] an American... [45:22] company, lobbing [45:26] just extremely unfounded accusations and asking us and asking them to remove us from their platform. And, you know, I they gave me an opportunity to respond.

[45:36] And I sent back just-- [45:39] Yeah. [45:40] Probably something that was completely unnecessary, because they said, [45:44] They even responded, hey, you didn't really need to do that. We were probably going to tell them no anyway. [45:50] But they... [45:52] continued and they found that we were that our platform had been built on one of the major e-commerce platforms and so they sent the same letter to them and [46:03] They did not give me a chance to respond, however, [46:06] they just took down [46:08] like seven of the products that uh [46:12] that were in question. So we're moving off of them and we're going to, you know, [46:19] Hopefully, a web three web three. Yeah. Well, you know, I was, you know, coming from classical finance, I had been a slow adopter of web three. But during this project, I am, I am fully on board with, with how well it's been working. Have you heard of stable coins? [46:40] USDC on the F network has become my best friend over the past year and a half nice nice nice cool [46:50] Wow. Well, anything else, Zach, that you feel like you want to speak to? Yeah, just want to give you the opportunity to expand on anything that you feel like needs more space. No, there are a whole bunch of rants I could go on about my time in pharmacy, but this has been great. And I think it's served exactly what you were looking for.

[47:20] I would say at Zach David, hit the DMs. If you're, I mean, I don't mean to put you on top of it. - No, please. [47:31] - You should be willing to engage with that. - We've put together a great team and like we just, [47:38] The nice thing about small business is just being able to talk to [47:43] talk to the customers. [47:44] Thank you. [47:45] personally and one-on-one consistently. Totally. [47:48] Thank you. [47:49] Okay. Thanks so much, Zach. Thanks for coming on. We appreciate it. [47:53] Hey, thank you so much. It's been great. [47:55] Okay, talk to you later. [47:58] okay that was zach what a nice guy [48:02] Lovely guy. Learned a lot. I want to ask you a few. [48:09] I have changed my mind about habitats. [48:10] Yeah. Changed my mind. You were that guy with the sign. Yeah. Uh, [48:16] I am going to. Well, actually, I feel like it's not even changed your mind. It's like, [48:23] what's you're thinking. Cause I don't think you even came in like for people who don't know Dina, they should know that you are, [48:31] Um, you love to be a contrarian. [48:33] Great example. Prime example. Prime example. Yesterday, Timothee Chalamet comes out with a Vogue cover that is... [48:45] like just bad like it doesn't even it no one really thinks it's good and i say to you what do you think

[48:55] of the cover. Yeah. And you were like, I knew you were not going to just be like, yeah, it sucks. You're like, I like that. It's [49:04] I like that it's bad. I think that it's cool. And I was just like, you just have to, you have to take the contrarian, which I love about you. And it's given me permission to be contrarian when it's not accepted, when it's not, [49:16] what people expect of me. And so I love that about you, but I feel like peptides right up your alley because in inherently there's a, there's a, [49:24] mistrust of something that is [49:27] off on guard. There's a tension there. Yeah. There's a tension there. And so, yeah, that's, I'm curious, like you've been, you're, you are primed for an openness around something like this. And so curious what you're, there it is. There it is objectively not. And what's missing even from this is the text on it, which was something like, it was just so bad. All of it was just like, I just, I do want to say that it comes from like, I, there's a well that springs up inside me when [49:57] us like when I see everyone agreeing about a thing it's uncontrollable there's something it's genuine your your contrarian take is coming from a genuine place it's coming from a genuine place and it's coming from a wait hold on why are we all thinking of this one way about this thing perhaps we should look at it from a different direction so I just to be clear I'm not an asshole like I know no no I just am a curious person and I want to explore it yes yes [50:24] And I don't think you take things at face value, which is really admirable.

[50:28] And I think a lot of people just take things. I'm having a hard time defending the Timothee Chalamet. Yeah, as you should. I was struggling a little bit to find the ways to defend it. [50:41] Good luck. [50:44] Yeah. [50:46] What's your personal feelings around peptides? [50:50] . [50:53] Thank you. [50:54] I [50:57] you [50:57] I feel like... [51:01] Thank you. [51:02] Thank you. [51:03] I am really into... [51:05] people [51:07] being control of their own having the body body autonomy is the is the word that's active [51:12] is the phrase that Zach used. And I think that's [51:14] That's a great question. [51:15] um [51:17] Way to put it. I like I think like a founding principle of Boys Club or like of mine. And I think it has seeped into sort of the culture of us and our team is like. [51:27] yeah, that just that sense of autonomy being like, [51:32] paramount and like really important. And I think that is really fun when you combine that with some of the stuff that's happening in tech and in and around tech and like this, yeah, some of the research and developments and advancements that have happened that are happening in science and in medicine. It's why I get excited about some of the AI stuff because I'm like, man, what's that going to unlock? And there's like just this whole new frontier of,

[51:58] health and healthcare and like adjacent to that [52:02] looks maxing, I suppose, and cosmetics that is just like fun. There's like a lot of fun, like juicy and... [52:11] um [52:13] And I think that so my mind is like not changed as a result of that conversation. I was open to it. I'm open to it now. [52:21] kind of in a spirit of like adventure and experimentation. [52:25] I think that like personally, [52:29] I'm not quite there yet. [52:32] But I don't know that that matters. [52:34] Totally. [52:36] Totally. Yeah. I mean, I just, I, that's how, how do you feel about it? Um, I, I, [52:45] Um, [52:48] I love... [52:49] people who [52:52] are willing to [52:54] take risks. Like, I think it's a risk on group chat. Like that's, who's doing this. It's like people who are like, okay, okay. [53:03] Fuck it. Let's give it a go. And I am inspired by that. I think that's cool. I look at that and I'm like, whoa, cool. I don't know that I... [53:15] What keeps coming up for me is I'm like, I'm not a doctor. [53:19] Like, I feel like, no, My Lane. [53:22] No, my life. I think I would feel really, really differently if I was... [53:28] like chronically ill and was like,

[53:31] And I think a lot of what I'm seeing about it around in and around it is what I talked about. There's the longevity stuff that doesn't interest me. I do not need to live forever. I don't, I don't need that whatsoever. That's out the door for me. Bye. Don't care. [53:45] So that category-- Hang on, I'm going Johnson. No, thank you. Yeah. Goodbye. So that's over. That doesn't interest me. So then I look at the other three categories. [53:54] um chronic illness I am blessed genuinely I feel this way I I know people who are chronically ill it's awful and like I would [54:03] I support... [54:05] people taking [54:08] medicine into their own hands and being like, I'm going to figure this out because nothing else has worked for me. I really think that's wonderful and like go off. That's cool. That category doesn't apply to me. And, and I'm really genuinely like feel blessed. [54:20] there. So then the other two categories are [54:23] Like vanity, maybe. I mean, there's the cognitive stuff, which I think is interesting. I don't think I'm going – I don't have a belief that I'm going to be – [54:33] uh magnitudes [54:35] magnitude, I can't even say it, smarter from putting something in my body. Um, like I just, that doesn't seem like it's going to happen for me. So like, so then what's left for me is, um, [54:48] like, [54:49] Vanity. Like thin... [54:51] beautiful. Those are the, those are whatever. Yeah. Yeah. For some people, the weight loss is not vanity. It's totally, totally. I'm, I'm, I, I am a healthy weight. [55:00] And that's a privilege as well. So yeah, I think like totally, totally. And I think that I support it again. So for me personally, I'm like, am I willing to take a risk? This is risky. All of this is risky. Like anybody would say that. I think Zach would say that. Like, am I willing to take a risk to...

[55:20] Um, [55:21] for vanity. [55:23] Not no. Certainly not no. You were in Bangkok getting a needle next to your eyeball. 100 PC. Yeah, no, for real. And that was a wake up call. Putting a pick line in my under eyes. I was like, time to reset. Full reset. Like, Lord Jesus, I have sinned and like fallen short. And so, yeah, I think like it is interesting to me. I am genuinely very curious about it. I have no judgment for [55:53] really cool. And like, I feel grateful that people are willing to go before me and to test stuff out. I don't know that for me, there's enough of like a drive to, for what my specific needs are to take on the risk and also like the time and research that it takes to like, know what you're doing. People are really locking in on, on the stacks. [56:15] What the cocktails, the stacks. Yeah. But if someone came to me and was like, I'm doing X, Y, or Z, I'm like, [56:23] tell me more. That's my feeling. Like I'm interested. Um, so that's sort of where I'm at with it. And I think I also always come back to a Nick Susie. [56:33] wisdom, which is who's benefiting. [56:36] Like who's benefiting from my decisions and my choices and the money that I'm spending my attention. Like, what? [56:42] And I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. [56:45] when you're doing anything. [56:46] And so I think about that too. It's like who's winning and who's losing in the actions that I'm taking.

[56:52] And I think it's good to be [56:56] Like... [56:57] cautious. [56:58] Yeah. And I feel that way. Novo Nordisk or whatever, like... [57:03] Big Olympic. [57:04] big pharma or not big pharma or whatever. Like, I don't know, you know? And so, uh, I think about that as well, but, um, yeah. [57:13] I think there's some things that I could probably just be taking some vitamins like biotin and we're getting some improvements. Like I, it can start there. That's so funny. I like, don't believe in vitamins at all. That is so funny. Like I'm just like, [57:27] Yeah, I do have a doctor friend who was literally like, [57:29] you're just paying them out. You can spend money on them, but like, you're just paying them out. But then I did like take Nutrifol for a bit and it did help with my hair. So I don't know, whatever. [57:38] Whatever. I think it's cool. I think it's interesting. I think everybody should go off. And I think I want to create a space where we can. [57:46] have conversations about things that feel taboo. [57:49] Yeah. [57:51] This feels taboo and I... [57:54] Also think next week's, we're going to talk about some things that are taboo next week as well. Yes, we are. So our live stream next week, dad, [58:02] doesn't need to listen. Hey dad, maybe skip that one. Skip November 11th is not a live stream you need to tune into. Um, [58:14] It's going to be a great lab stream, though. Oh, yeah. Everybody else should. [58:19] Okay. Really quick. Some housekeeping. [58:22] If you're going to

[58:24] Buenos Aires. [58:25] come through, link in... [58:29] on the website, Lincoln, Lincoln bio, um, RSVP that's, um, number one. [58:34] Number two, [58:35] live stream next week is on Tuesday in person. [58:39] Tune in there. [58:41] uh anything else any other housekeeping um no just this person who commented are the peptides causing a receding hairline in the girl on the left me [58:47] And to that man I say, to that man I say, [58:50] Jokes on him. [58:52] I love my forehead. It's like one of my favorite things about myself. So, oh my God. Oh my God. Jokes on you. Wait, wait, wait. Who was it? Whatever. Okay. One other thing. Um, I have to tell, [59:04] I don't want to invite this, I guess. This is maybe bad, but... [59:08] What the trolls don't know is, [59:11] is like it genuinely fuels boys club. Like it's, it's, [59:16] I don't want to invite it. I don't want to invite it. But it is a source of joy. It's joy. It's joyous. It's genuine joy. And anyway, but... [59:28] That's the housekeeping. Great. Thanks everyone for tuning in. This is super fun. Um, and for folks who are listening back on the podcast, uh, you know what, give it a little like and subscribe. We actually haven't, we haven't had that call to action in a while. Um, like, and subscribe. Kate is giving us kudos, kudos to you. Um, yeah. If you're listening on Spotify, for example, it's really easy. You just go into the app and you click five stars.

[59:55] I'm not quite sure where, but it's going to be pretty included. I'm pretty sure you can find it. The same will be the case on Apple. [1:00:03] music and it really helps us. [1:00:06] it honestly really helps more pitching guests when they go to a broadcast and like oh people [1:00:11] like them. So you're doing us a huge favor by liking and subscribing. And thank you so much for tuning in. [1:00:17] Thank you so much. We'll see you next week. Bye. Okay. That was DBH. Join us live on Twitter every Wednesday at noon. Or here, I guess.