Ep: 223 - The Messy Olympics, Gigi Claudid our AI agent, Tatum Hunter on Internet Culture, Mashal Waqar and Artem Brazhnikov from Octant on sustainable funding models, Nick Devor of Barrons on Kalshi, Polymarket and the Super Bowl

[00:28] Here's this week's show. [00:31] you [00:34] Hot mics! [00:36] Okay, we're back. We're back with Anchorage Digital and Octant. [00:41] And it's great to be here. Really great to be here. We're gonna start off with Vogue. [00:46] today. I think we're just going to jump right in for folks who haven't seen this yet. [00:51] I can just describe what happened here. Okay, so the New York Times did a video with the... [00:58] Anna Wintour. [00:59] famous editor-in-chief of Vogue magazine, and the new editor-in-chief, Chloe Mao. And the New York Times asks... [01:07] chloe mal first what would you do if you had the budgets that other condonast publications i think specifically like had yes no no no no no oh really that was kind of how i read it was like anna went to her had all these had like huge budgets when she was editor of vogue and okay chloe mal now is working with a reduced scope i see so if you had the budget of animator what would you do what would you do that's how i read it but maybe not maybe okay i thought it was like other condonast publications had bigger budgets than vogue in the 90s okay but i don't know now [01:37] Now I question. And now I question. Everything. [01:41] Question everything. Everything's falling into question. Okay. Anyway. And Chloe Mal goes on this, like I'd raise, she had a, she had a, she had a punch list. I was like, Oh damn, she's thought about this. And she was like, raise salaries 30%, grow the digital team, the social team, investment podcast studio. Yes. Brand new podcast. It was pretty tactical stuff. Like it was like a punch list of these are like seven items that I would do. And also probably is asking for currently.

[02:11] or... [02:12] responds and is like, [02:14] For the record, we had a great budget. Like, she's like-- [02:17] Okay. [02:18] Like defensive. Yeah. She's like a little totally defensive. And it's kind of like a tense moment between the two. And the internet's talking about it. I don't know. People are saying it's a, it is showing the difference of leadership styles between, I don't know if she's, Anna Wintour is a boomer, but like between an older generation that is now retiring. And as Anna Wintour is and younger leaders who are stepping into their, [02:40] their moment now yeah and and when tour being kind of like cold and [02:46] comes across as like not [02:48] very connected, I would say, to the people and also to the business, maybe less so. Chloe's the people's editor. Yeah, like she, like, the 30% [02:57] like raising salary 30 i think is something that really stuck out to [03:01] Yeah. Folks. Folks on the internet. And they're just being like, yeah, general like warmth and more of a warmth from Chloe. Yeah. And that being like... People were really endeared to her. Yeah. It was very smart of her because people now have like... But then there were some people that were like, she's too tactical. She's not like a... Oh, really? Yeah. Oh my gosh. But yeah, I do think that it's a sign of like... [03:23] old school, new school, and like an overt transparency and... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true, actually. Vulnerability. Yeah. And like an unwillingness for Anna Wintour to be... [03:34] vulnerable or transparent in a way that like younger leaders maybe are yeah and need to and [03:40] Should be. Should be, arguably. Yeah. Okay, that's our first little note back. How are you feeling about the market?

[03:50] Okay, well, we have a screenshot here. [03:53] that kind of indicates how I'm feeling about the market. [03:57] I was in Mexico this past week. And if anybody follows me on Instagram, they know that I was in Mexico. I had a great time. It was so fun. Shout out to... [04:06] Actually, I won't talk to who was there, but it was really fun. And I was sitting on the beach. Some people there working crypto, some people there do not. [04:15] The market came up. [04:17] It came up because one of the people was like, I'm so glad we paid for this. [04:21] last year prepaid prepaid it was a prepaid thing and i was like wait how bad's the market and they were like you don't really want to know and i was like no no i do and bitcoin at 62. yeah [04:32] Ethereum at 1800. Uh-huh. [04:35] I'm on the beach. [04:36] I'm like, this is not how it should be. This is incorrecto. And so I made some trades. Three margaritas in. We have a screenshot to prove it. That's actually the best time to trade. Best time to trade. When you pass three margaritas on the beach. Just with abandon. [04:53] Absolute abandon. So the text says, I'm three margaritas in. Imported all my USDC and blank into BTC. Bad idea, question mark. Dina Burke, how much? [05:06] extraordinary amount of money it was a reasonable amount of money it was a reasonable amount of money it wasn't um irresponsible just buying the dip that's what i was buying the dip i was buying the dip and that's how honestly the contrarian um investment is how you win that's how you that's how we win that's how i win there's your asymmetric upside and i was just like oh excuse me traitor traitor here

[05:27] Anyway, I think the market's terrible. I think that it will be better at some point. And as Miranda says, that's none of my business right now. [05:36] So the trade has been executed, and now we wait. Totally. [05:41] I had a real, was watching the Bitcoin price in particular pretty closely because there was a girl in our perps and peptides chat. I won't dox who it is, but she said. Really quick, we have a chat, a telegram group called perps and peptides. And it is the most risk on chat in the world. It's very, very risk on. And it's all women who are making bets across their bodies and their finances. And it's inspiring. [06:11] It's inspiring to witness. There's some real DGEM behavior in there. And in particular, one... [06:16] woman who was talking about how she opened a Bitcoin long [06:21] I saw this. This was like the day that it was crashing. This is what tipped me off, actually. Yeah. Yes. Okay. You saw the notification. The market was going back. Yeah. And you're like, okay, wait, what's going on? Yeah. She opened a Bitcoin long. [06:30] And I was like, a long, like I thought I misread it because I was like, everything was crashing and it was just like read everywhere. [06:36] And she was like, yeah. And I put my like liquidation price basically at 62.00. [06:43] And so, and she was getting on a Ryanair flight and like not, she was like, I'm going to be offline. So I'm just like setting it. It was at that point higher. And like, it felt like that was a reasonable, reasonable place to put it. And she was like, I'm going to be offline, like whatever, like no wifi on Ryanair flights. And I don't.

[07:00] No, exactly. Like she may have pulled it out before it hit 62, but we did go below her price. So. We dipped. We dipped further. [07:07] But that's what happens when you go risk on. Yeah. You win, you lose. You win big, you lose big. Totally. Okay. You also had a text message come through. Let's do a quick shout out to our... [07:18] one of our supporters of the show, supporters of the show, sponsors of the show. We have a brand new set of supporters this season. I don't know if we're calling it a season. This season. [07:27] Month. [07:28] This quarter. [07:30] And we're really, really, really excited to have them on board. The first one is Octant. So Octant will, Michelle and Artem from Octant will be joining us in a little bit. But if you know Octant, you love them. Our supporting sponsor, Octant, well known in Ethereum circles for its tireless contribution to the Ethereum ecosystem through research and millions of dollars in grants and public goods funding. [08:00] which enables orgs and communities to build sustainable funding systems through these yield generating products. Direct your yield towards your own orgs runway or funnel it into broader ecosystem efforts. It's all fair game with Octon's new institutional grade vaults [08:17] earn, allocate, and grow Ethereum with DeFi. You can visit x.com/octenapp to learn more. And Michelle and Artem are going to be on the show and a few really excited to chat with them about what they're up to. Some big announcements today. So really happy, proud,

[08:34] excited to have them on board as sponsors and yeah different this is a different one i haven't quite seen this one um i think it's because what was i watching that there was like i always do this one but i get corrected [08:46] I get corrected. [08:49] this oh this one oh my gosh i don't think i'd ever hit that this requires i never hit the elbow hard personally also oh wow that one this one feels like grade school grade school vibes um also valentine's day is coming up this is a valentine's day special oh yeah yeah any plans [09:07] I'm going to San Francisco. Oh, right. Yeah. I'm going to San Francisco. I have a friend who's actually, we're doing a show with her this [09:14] year oh aim it with the glasses um i yeah i have a friend that we are doing a boys club production show that you will be all hearing about very soon which is exciting but it's kind of our new tradition to spend valentine's day together oh cute yeah so that'll be fun oh i didn't know that was the bit [09:33] I've created that. Oh, nice. Second year running. Second annual. It's new. But I, yeah, I'm going to the San Francisco Bay Area and... [09:42] It's just like everybody's talking about San Francisco right now. And so part of me is just like a little annoyed. That's, [09:47] I'm going for the people, not the place. Okay. No worries. [09:50] I'm drawing a line. It's okay. You can go anywhere. Oh, we have begun a journey. [09:58] on a platform called youtube.com. And we have resisted it for years. Four years. And Kate has been like, you guys, we need to do it. And we're all like, none of us watch YouTube.

[10:09] And Kate was like, but everyone, literally everyone else on the planet does. So [10:14] we have finally relented. [10:17] And we're there. And it's a new channel for us. So when you show up and you're like, whoa, [10:22] This feels new. It is. And just like be smash the subscribe, turn on the notifications and jump on in. I told you this earlier, but we had a YouTube premium account. I don't know what happened. Something happened. We don't have it any longer. And let me tell you, running without ads is really what you need to be doing. If you're listening to any boiler room. This is now a sponsor of a [10:52] That was something else, CTA. We do two newsletters a week. One is called Two Online on Fridays. That is, I write, that's on internet culture. And Dina writes the Wednesday newsletter that's on crypto and other tech news. And they're both really like, dare I say, good. [11:09] - What? - They're old school. - Oh, wow. - Hoodie. I know. First one, first batch. - First batch. I would love to bring those back. I don't even think that manufacturer exists anymore. - I know. I think this is the last one that was in. [11:20] the closet. Oh, wow. I have mine and I never wear it because... [11:25] It's an artifact to me. - Yeah. Also white, tough. Yeah. Okay. You had a friend text you. [11:32] You had quite a few. I mean, you got my text about the market and you had another friend text you about AI etiquette. Yeah. So I have a...

[11:40] a non-tech friend. [11:44] who was coming to me with her tech question. I know, it really is. We really need more of that. And she was like, hey, I got this email. She works at a school and she was like, she sent me the screenshot of the email that was like from administration or something. [11:57] clearly written by AI. Okay. [11:59] And. [12:00] And her question to me was like, have we defined any etiquette? [12:05] around. [12:06] how we're using AI and emails collectively as a society, and how tolerant we are. She didn't say this exactly, but like, [12:13] How tall? Yeah. Is it embarrassing when people send emails that are clearly AI? Like, I feel like it's so cringy. Totally. Yeah. [12:19] How do we course correct this? Yeah. [12:21] when people are sending a shame, shame, you think it's shame. [12:25] Yeah. [12:27] regarding the phrase. [12:28] Yeah. When people, yeah, Miranda's point is when people break a social contract, we have a social contract that we're humans emailing each other. Yes. And when that's broken, that needs some sort of call out culture needs to be brought back. [12:41] I'm getting a nod from, yep, in support. Call out culture just generally, I think, should be brought back. Yeah. I love, I think it's a beautiful thing to call someone out. Well, Miranda was telling me about the call out culture that she's a part of is calling out people who play their TikToks or phones. Yeah. Video out loud without headphones in a public place. Yeah. Which I support that. I support that. I struggle sometimes to do it because. Calling out. [13:07] Yeah, because I'm like, this is going to be an argument. Yeah. And I used to, when I was a younger...

[13:13] lady bump it around. Yeah. I was in New York city. I was looking for an argument. I couldn't wait to get into it with somebody. Yeah. I've lost that. [13:22] Edge. Edge. I've lost that edge. Yeah, I get that. And I'm just like, whatever, do what you want. I know. And it's live and live. [13:27] and like you're gonna have to live with that that you're one of those people but it's fairly annoying yeah anyway [13:33] Really? [13:34] Miranda gets triggered by it and that's fair. [13:37] And so I feel I have to say something. She feels like she has to say something. I get that. I get that too. I support it. I support it. I do want to just say the glasses, acknowledging the glasses. This isn't going to be. No, talent walked in. When she walked in, when she walked into the studio, I was like, talent's here. She had the sunglasses on. This is not going to be an all the time thing. I wish it were. I wish it were. Should I have it? It's really cool. Okay. I remember the first time. I feel like it's hard for me to connect maybe with people if you can't see my eyes. I think they're going to be like, whoa, she's so cool. Oh, okay. [14:07] I will say, I remember the first time you wore these sunglasses. Yeah. This was probably three years ago. Miranda... [14:14] No, it couldn't. Anyway, we were doing a, a trivia, we used to do trivia nights called Mind Games. And Dina was like, I'm really excited. I have some glasses. I'm going to like bring these glasses. And I was like, cool. And she shows up and the whole night became about Dina's glasses. And I feel like we're back there. One of the teams I think was named Dina's New Glasses. Dina's New Glasses was one of the trivia nights. So yeah, I just want to say I have an eye injury. So that's why we're not doing, that's why the glasses. And I do also want to say, remember two weeks ago, three weeks ago when President Macron was at Davos.

[14:44] He had the glasses on and we were all like ripping on him. And now I'm like, oh, I totally get it. Oh, he had a injury. I just assume like, or like, yeah, there was. Well, my guess was that he had a bluff. [14:53] I know that was possibly it. Possibly. But just to say, like, I have sympathy. Empty now for everyone. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, man, I feel so bad. Because I get it. You don't want to be out here with, like, I stuff. No. It's like, yeah, I stuff's hard. So anyway, it's not going to be regular, but. [15:09] Um, I support it either way. I almost texted you and was like, you should just wear an eyepatch. [15:13] Nice. And be like, coming in. [15:16] Okay. What else do we want to talk about here? Oh, I want to talk about something called Gigi Claudide. Yes. Which I... [15:26] will explain but i feel it's your she's your child but [15:30] Gigi Claudide is a Claude bot that Dina has added to our Slack. [15:36] And, you know, [15:37] is training. You are training her up in the way that she should go. Yeah. And it is very, uh, labor intensive. It really is. Watching you do it is like incredible because you, [15:47] some of the things that she's able to do are exceptional. And then at other times, I'm just like, man, Dina is managing a high school intern. Yeah. Who knows literally nothing about the world. I know. It's crazy. It's so for those who don't know, we're using OpenClaw, which is an open source like AI agent, [16:04] I don't know. Entity. Yeah. And it's... [16:11] is basically like you can spin up an agent who can work autonomously. And the best practice is that you give it its own sort of sandbox to work in so that it's not all up in your...

[16:23] like, [16:25] Live, live things. Yeah, your Gmail and places where there could be security vulnerabilities. So we set up a separate device and... [16:33] have started like [16:35] bringing her to life, Gigi Hadid or Claudine, and... [16:39] Added her to our... That it's them, they, to our Slack. I like a she. She. And my experience so far is exactly that. Like, you have to... [16:50] It's, [16:51] very eager to help and it can do a lot when it has the right [16:55] access and [16:56] when it can sort of run, but it's a lot of like... [17:02] getting it back on the rails and like, oh, that... And you know, honestly, like a lot of it is... [17:08] like having to brief it well and that's actually kate's doing a ai [17:13] prompting class you may have noticed from all the incredible design work that was creative unlock and and the really like a big lesson from when we had Jamie on the [17:26] show a couple weeks ago who uh jamie gannon i think yeah at tech bimbo um she was like yeah like [17:33] you have to brief these things really well. And like the art is in the briefing and... [17:38] garbage in garbage out if you're if you're just gonna like fully and that's never it hasn't been [17:43] Like it's so evident to me working with Gigi Hadid because it's like if I don't take the time to be like this is exactly what I want. These are the outputs I want. This is like the way these are the constraints. These are the things I need to be thinking about. Like it just sucks. It's really interesting because you are one of the most impatient people I know. And you have had an unbelievable amount of patience with this situation. Yesterday Miranda was like man we all have our strength out of nowhere. Miranda goes we all have our strengths.

[18:08] And I was like, what are you talking about? And she was like, Dina up here in the Slack, I would have let this go a while ago. - You think I'm patient? I have never once in my entire life. - No, I said, I'm patient, it's strange that [18:19] A lot of us are seeing the messages and finding it [18:21] Yeah, it's very overwhelming. [18:25] Yeah, I'm digging in. [18:27] You are dominating. I just feel like I can just get it every once in a while. I get a taste of like, oh, wow, this is going to be so crazy when we're able to. [18:37] Automate all the analytics for everything. The incentive is right. It's there and I'm getting hints of it. And so that's why I continue to. I think one of the things for me. [18:45] is the feeling I have all the time with it so far is I'm happy for you or I'm sorry, but like, I'm not reading all that. Like it's really long winded. Then you need to just tell it that. [18:54] Okay. Okay. But that makes me feel like, um, yeah, like you're in control. That's what I'm saying. Like you're in control and you can be like, I need to be a lot more. This might be a great outlet for me. And I also, the other feeling I had around it was like, oh, I really get because. [19:08] Miranda was like, can we please give her... [19:10] a [19:12] pfp because it didn't it didn't have a pfp and then you gave it a pfp did you choose that or did she choose i did yeah okay [19:21] well I was just like go find a yeah no that would have actually been a that would have been an appropriate task to give it I know and so when I when maybe we should ask but when I saw anyway when I saw her as now a PFP I was like oh I really get how men have

[19:42] become problematic relationships with their yeah with their ai and i'm just like oh you can think that this you can start to see this as a person the same thing happened to me with for a long time your pfp on twitter was that iconic picture maybe kate can pull it up of jeff bezos [19:58] in [19:58] like with... [19:59] The head. Yeah. The jeans and the. The jeans and the headset. Yeah. Yeah. And you had that as your PFP for. A long time on Twitter. And then. [20:10] One day someone posted that picture as a meme. And the first thought that went through my head was why is someone posting? [20:21] Like my brain had gotten broken. Like, and I was like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Check back in. Like, [20:26] cold water. That's why I think it might be actually dangerous and not protocol. There it is. There's Dina. To give it. [20:37] human pronouns like it might be better to say it I don't know I that's that perhaps is [20:43] for someone else to decide, but [20:45] that I think is maybe part of it. Okay. Okay. What else here? I feel like I, a lot of my, oh, you know, I think what we should talk about. [20:54] Norwegian gold medalist cheater. Okay. I have a lot of thoughts here. I knew you'd have so many thoughts, and I have so many thoughts. Okay, for people who don't know, I'm going to just pull up on... [21:05] the screen here, show this tab. Let me see if I can pull myself [21:10] up

[21:13] It's saying remove, so I don't want to... Can you pull my... Thanks. [21:17] Thank you. [21:20] Great. You may have seen the story. It is a Norwegian... [21:25] um speed speed no uh oh maybe he did the all the winter sports are the same to me i'm sorry it's perhaps the uh one where they go around with the gun and the anyway he's i think a distance athlete what [21:39] We just have some... [21:40] sports fans in the room oh oh sorry um anyway he's an athlete he got bronze which is really no it's a really important detail i know that's a really important detail in this he and he is on he's being interviewed in a post [22:01] match interview and he's like, "Yeah, I won. I'm so happy to have a medal." He sang it in... [22:08] Dutch. In Norwegian. [22:09] And I think he's Norwegian. Yeah, yeah, but I think they speak... [22:13] Dutch in Norway. [22:14] I really don't think that's true. But we'll do a fact check on that. And he basically is like, he's starting and it's like kind of a normal interview. And then it totally goes off the rails. And it's like... [22:24] sir this is wendy's where he starts crying yeah and he says [22:30] basically like I I'm so happy but like I cheated on this woman that I met six months ago three months ago he's like a weird timeline you guys just started dating totally not having a deal he's like I met this woman incredible woman six months ago three months ago I cheated on her so I'm not sharing this moment with her now and I'm like basically like I'm so sorry and like

[22:48] I like whatever. [22:50] What the room said earlier was men will do anything but go to therapy. And I'm like, yeah. Oh, right. It's been the worst week of my life. I told her a week ago and then it ended. No Dutch language. Wait, what? Go back to the Dutch. There is no Dutch language in Norway. Great. [23:05] - Fact check, so grateful for the fact check. [23:08] This live stream used to be called dumb bitch hour. And so just so people know. Yeah. Okay. I, I, [23:14] - Okay, that's what happened. - Oh, okay. So this actually... - Then she responded. - Then she responded. - Yeah. - And she was basically like... [23:20] It's hard to forgive even after a declaration of love in front of the whole world. I did not choose to end up in this situation and it hurts to have [23:27] to have to be in it. We have been in contact and he has a where my views on this. We've been in contact. First of all, oh my gosh. Okay, go ahead. Please. No, please. No, I want to hear yours first. Um, I like it. I, I, [23:40] did not consent to being a witness to whatever is happening in their relationship. And I feel as though this is something that I did not consent to. And his performative... [23:52] Couldn't care less about this man and his problems. It is so... [23:58] like ick is i know overused but like that was really the overwhelming biggest i've ever received personally um no my thought is [24:07] I just think like cheating is so nuanced and I'm just like, do not put that. [24:13] into public discourse. That is... [24:16] truly so inappropriate yeah it's inappropriate for him it's inappropriate for her i would be so fucking pissed yeah if someone that i was dating had cheated on me and then three months later went on national television told the world that they cheated on me and now she has to deal with it she has to talk about it and it's like that sucks my favorite tweets were people being like i am dying to see the girl group chat the girl group chat is going off right now and they're just

[24:46] So that was actually, there's sort of a little bit of a trend around like messy Olympics and messy Olympians. There's this other story that just broke this morning. [24:57] That was, okay, individual gold medal for the woman who was convicted of stealing her teammate's credit cards in October. So this is a French biathlon who... [25:08] yeah it was found guilty she was convicted of theft and credit card fraud and she just won she used her teammates card oh my god imagine can you imagine i'm like steal your credit card that's a crazy behavior how you can come back from that that feels like you get kicked off the team personally like there's some something unwell yeah yeah not good very bad um very very bad okay so i [25:30] Should we do the second? Yes. Great. I also want to thank. [25:35] Anchorage Digital, who is... [25:38] our sponsor of the show for this season, this time in our lives here. This episode is brought to you by Anchorage Digital founders and protocol builders stressing about your TGE. [25:49] you need to get in touch with them. They're the first federally regulated crypto bank in the US, which is crazy. And that means that they can offer crypto startups and other disruptors actually reliable USD banking services without the usual headaches. They're a one-stop shop that can support you end-to-end on everything from minting and distribution to treasury management. They also just announced a $100 million strategic investment from Tether last week.

[26:19] big flex. And a big flex since they already custody for a lot of the big boys like Goldman Sachs, BlackRock, A16Z, and Visa. So protocol founders... [26:30] TG with confidence and launch with the support that's helped some of the biggest, most complex businesses in the world go to market. Visit Anchorage.com to learn more. Also, they're doing an ETH Denver event. They're hosting a hacker house on the 17th. [26:49] Link is in the chat, so check that out. [26:53] Thank you. [26:53] I'm going to hit the elbow. We love you, Anchorage. So East Denver, we don't know that we're going, but there is going to be a little meetup that I think Jill and Keely and others are organizing. So we're going to be going. [27:09] Ladies, you should drop that. [27:11] in the chat too [27:13] And everyone should go to that. [27:15] meet up and then go to the anchorage [27:18] event. [27:19] That's what I would do. I can't believe we're not going to be there. I know. First time in four years. [27:24] What is next here? Okay, we're having Tatum Hunter come on the show. Yeah, I just want to give a quick shout out. So this is not going to resonate with absolutely anyone who is listening. Perfect. I love when that happens. Who is... [27:38] Gonna be tuning in later, but I have been listening to a new podcast that I want to give a recommendation to. Whoa. Okay. Hot rec coming in. It's called The Rest is History. [27:47] It's two middle-aged British men.

[27:49] And [27:51] They do multi-episode shows on a specific thing that happened in history. Theme in history. So like one that I listened to what recently was like Young Napoleon, like Young Napoleon's Life. And it was like four episodes, a really big deep dive. And all the other people that listen to this podcast, I'm sure, are also middle-aged British men. I'm sure. But I have been really loving it. And I just listen to it. Tina, you surprise and delight me all the time. I would never have guessed. It was. They are. They're my guys. They're my guys. [28:21] He kind of looks like Tim Cook. [28:23] Yeah, if you squint. They're so charming. And I just finished up an episode of a four part series on the Iranian Revolution. I knew nothing about it. And now I know a lot about it. I love that. And it's just like, I guess like what? [28:40] The most... [28:42] when I think about like a self-care time, like what I can do most to relax. [28:45] And like to really, just to like really, just like, [28:50] trying to, you know, do healthy habits and not like go out and spend money or like whatever. Like when I'm like, okay, I just like really need to like care for what's happening here. Yeah. [28:57] a long walk and a podcast like that's great totally outside of like industry or anything and these guys are really delivering on that i love that so i'm really that's wonderful

[29:10] I'm Dina. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Thank you so much for coming. Natasha, nice to meet you. Is this okay? [29:16] Sound good? Awesome. Okay. Oh, your freckles are so cute. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. I love. Meticulously apply them every day. Okay. Great. Well, you've done a great job. Tatum, we're so happy to have you. Thank you so much for being game and for coming and joining us. I just hit you with the cold DM and I was like, I don't know. And then you're game and that's so cool. So appreciate that. I'm just going to do a quick intro and then we can jump in. There's a lot that we want to chat about. Yes. Okay. So Tatum Hunter is an internet culture journalist. You [29:46] Tinder lets you flirt with AI characters. Three of them dumped me, which I'm excited to get into. She worked at the Washington Post and now has her own sub stack. And the link is going to be along the bottom of the ticker here so folks can follow along. Okay, Tatum, we have, you sent through three fairly unsettling internet culture things for us to chat through. And I think I want to jump right into probably the one of the most unsettling one, which is around the mainstreamification of, [30:14] of deep fakes. [30:15] So, [30:16] exes grok is putting people in bikinis at the drop of a hat [30:21] without their consent what's your take [30:23] Yeah, for people who aren't familiar with this story, this was the AI bot that's built into X. It also has its own standalone app called Grok. And in early January, people started asking this bot to undress existing photos of women and children. So, like, for example, maybe you shared a photo of yourself on X. Someone replies to the post and says, you know, put her in a bikini, put her in dental floss, put her in saran wrap.

[30:49] And... [30:50] it would say yes, right? And most other AI bots would not do this. If you were in OpenAI, if you were using Google's tool, it would say no to these kind of requests. There's like security or yeah, security, I guess. [31:01] constraints that are built into those models that would [31:04] make it so that they wouldn't be able to [31:07] Is this better? We good. [31:09] Great. [31:13] Perfect. [31:13] Yeah, it's built into the models that they wouldn't be able to do that. Yeah, yeah. Lots of guardrails because it's like a it's a PR problem. How am I doing? How am I doing? [31:23] I saw it falling again. There we go. Yeah. And so there was one report saying that in the first, I think, 11 days of January, Grock generated about 3 million non-consensual sexual photos. 23,000 images of children. Oh, my God. [31:43] that's something that most companies are have teams right yeah making sure that does not like proliferate on their platform whereas um you know we've since learned that x really hollowed out its safety teams which allowed this to explode and what's what's so interesting and so frightening about this is that like deep fakes have always been a big internet problem since we were able to make them there's statistics showing that like 99 or 98 i think of deep fakes on the internet are [32:13] And 99% of those depict women. So like our AI image generators have done what they mostly seem to do is make porn, right? Showing women real or fake. And that's kind of until this point been a little bit, a little bit niche, right? In these kind of icky forums. Like dark web. Exactly. The Gooner discord. We had a guy who did a Gooner piece a couple months ago and it was like insane what happens in those discords. And like insane. And it's this.

[32:43] Thank you. [32:44] And the guys in those forums had to seek that out. Or, you know, there's like new Defy apps that will pop up in the app stores and then Apple and Google will learn about it and take them down. But this was like a major social media platform. This is just happening in Thread. Yeah. Like in the Thread. Oh, my God. Yeah. Okay. [32:59] And there was one woman actually who is the mother of one of Elon Musk's children who was a really high profile victim of this, you know, and people kind of using it as a tool for targeted harassment. You know, there have been. [33:12] politicians, there have been athletes, famous people, and everyday women and girls. And so, yeah, what was particularly disturbing is how this was not some like shadowy corner of the internet. It was like a major place that people hang out and this was happening in the millions. [33:29] Crazy. [33:29] It's so upsetting. Are you like, are you on X like actively? [33:34] What a good question. I try with every fiber of my being not to be. In fact, I just posted about, you know, there's these layoffs at the Washington Post. I mean, a lot of our, my colleagues lost our jobs last week. Yeah. I'm so sorry. I, that's awful. It is awful. It is awful. And I, you know, I posted, I like share this with my network. I posted on, on threads on, you know, on blue sky on X and the replies on X are some of the funniest, you know, and kind of,

[34:04] ways. Yeah, unfortunately, I'm addicted to it. So that is a problem. But I totally agree. It's a useful assessment. And I also do feel like the way that the algorithm works is like you really get [34:15] into a corner of the internet. It more than any other platform that I'm on, at least personally, is like, I'll like a few things, and then you like get absorbed into this corner of the internet. And so my experience of X, like, I never see porn on it, ever. And like, then I'll talk to... [34:32] other people or friends or whatever and they're like oh I've I'm not on x anymore because it was only porn and I do feel like you kind of just get like looped into something and then I imagine that there's people who are really seeking that out and like their experience of x is just pornography basically and like my experience of x is like [34:51] Memes. Heated rivalry. Heated rivalry. Which I guess... That sounds great. [34:57] But yeah, it's like very upsetting to hear how prolific it is. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about where you think that accountability should land. Okay, with Grok, now we have this... [35:09] behavior that's happening on a mainstream platform so easily. Like click of a button, you can generate these images. Really disturbing. Wondering where like... [35:20] the line of responsibility or accountability should lie, like platform, [35:24] person [35:26] regulation, like App Store you mentioned, where do you think like the line should be drawn? [35:31] Yeah. Okay. I have two answers. One, like in the world that we live in and one in a theoretical better world in the world that we live in. I think it,

[35:39] Where the buck will stop if it does stop is with regulation, probably. Right. Because one pattern that we see with social media companies and it doesn't it's not always this way. It doesn't have to be this way. Is that it's hard when you're a profit motivated company to regulate yourself. Yeah, because a lot of times that means, you know. [35:56] not doing what you think would make you the most money, right? And so I think that the culpability lies with X's leadership, probably. Like, our reporting from some of my colleagues at The Post showed that, like, [36:08] amping up Grok's ability to make sexual content and scaling back on the safety features and safety team, that was a choice, right? That X and XAI, their leadership made. But I think that where stuff like this gets better is when, yeah, is when outside regulators step in. I think that there's currently like... [36:28] dozens of state governments, state attorneys general, [36:33] launching investigations into X, the government in France, UK's [36:38] telecom regulator have said like, this isn't okay. And we're investigating this and we're going to do something about it. So we'll kind of see how that shakes out. But we've seen that like, as this has been unfolding, the company at a couple different points has said, Oh, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, we'll fix this. We're going to put it behind a paywall. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, we'll fix this. You can't do this in the X app anymore, only in the Grok app. And it's like, no, you know, the problem isn't that there's too much of it. The problem is that it's happening, right? You have to stop. [37:06] And then in a better theoretical world, I think that, I think we're,

[37:11] the people respond grok isn't doing this men are doing this right and they're prompting the bot like the bot isn't going rogue and spitting out these images men are going on to the plot these apps and asking it to do this yeah and so like i don't think that ai or image generators are some new you know generating some new type of misogyny i think if you like hand these men a stick they'll [37:41] like, [37:42] water of misogyny that we swim in, which is why it's been so frustrating to watch this play out. Yeah. So in an imaginary world... [37:50] what would happen? Like you were like, the regulators is in this world. [37:56] Don't you think? And then you said in a better world, what would happen? Men would go to therapy? I think that men would get raised from a really young age to be, you know, to be disgusted by the idea of... We're going back to shame. We're shaming. Yeah, that you would be raised to... [38:15] not get off on violating someone's consent. And then if you did it as an adult, you would be [38:20] so ostracized in the real world and the digital one and you know would feel a lot of shame for doing something like that and of course that's not the world that we live in we're just gonna start commenting shame shame shame on all these posts it might work absolutely let's give it a shot you know let's let's see what we can get a club eat on it yeah we'll get my bot on it um okay next topic um which i near near and dear to my heart the personal surveillance so interpersonal

[38:46] surveillance, specifically location sharing with friends or partners, this idea of micro-cheating and loyalty monitoring. [38:53] Tell us more about this. Wait, before you tell us more, I just want to know, do you share your location with people? No. [38:58] No, no one. No. Okay. [39:18] to know where people are if they're going on dates. Deena's like, don't stop sharing your looking at your face. Sometimes I'm like, Natasha, I'd like to know. No, that's why I started. I've never, I always found it. [39:29] I had a lot of friends who were sharing locations, all everybody shared their location. And I was so, so adamant against it. And then two years ago I started dating and I was like, Oh, I like actually want people to know where I'm at and like, to be able to be like, okay, last scene at hotel Del Mano on X day. And then once you're, once a few people have it, you're like, whatever, everybody could have it. But I've, I've had a journey in my own personal experience of what I'm comfortable with around it. But yeah. [39:59] Anyway. Tell us what you think. Well, that makes so much sense. And I think that's like, I hear that from parents too a lot where it's like, [40:06] say what you will, I'm going to know where my teenager is, which makes sense. But this is like, this is my favorite thing in the world to talk about. Because as with so much of our personal tech, this makes life more convenient. Like the carrot that it dangles is like, you're going to save time communicating with your loved ones and the people in your circle about logistics, how long is it going to take you to get here? Where are you at, et cetera. But then the cost gets talked about a lot less. And the companies that provide these tools certainly aren't going to talk about

[40:36] your relationships in a way. Like when I was growing up, you know, my parents and I had to have this whole kind of power struggle and like relational relationships. [40:45] like journey about [40:47] What, how much do we trust each other? What are we going to share with each other? And how do we earn and build that trust? And these days that's gone, right? So is that good? Is that bad? I don't know. But we're changing the way that we build trust with our partners, with our children, with our best friends. [41:03] And I think that... [41:05] that what ends up happening is that you don't become more trusting when you have that failsafe. I think it actually kind of erodes, right? Yeah. When we have all of these digital touch points to monitor with our romantic partners, for example, [41:20] Like, I talked to... For my story about this, I talked to somebody who said that, like, she checks her friends' and partners' locations like a social media feed. Like, she's refreshing. I think most... [41:31] My friends who are like Gen Z, all of them. Yeah. Yeah. And, and... [41:36] And I guess the way that this connects with a separate story I did about this concept of micro cheating is that the more visibility you get into your partners, for example, life, [41:47] the more things there are to worry about, right? There's all of these little granular things like, you know, is he following this woman? Is he liking her pictures? You know, who's in his text? Who's in his WhatsApp? Where is he now? What does that mean? And I think that it seems to take a lot of emotional energy for people. And I don't know if it makes us feel more secure in the end either. Yeah.

[42:07] I have kind of a counterpoint, which is also a little bit of a tangent, which is related to kids. [42:12] I have kids, I don't know if you have children, but one is... [42:16] nine and so he's at the age when I was nine I was fully in the neighborhood out on my own on the bike alone [42:23] come back when it gets dark. And that was like the expectation. And [42:27] I live in a neighborhood with a lot of other families, and I would say, [42:31] No one else lets their kid go out, like just walking around the neighborhood. I do because I want to foster independence and that's like a big value for me personally, but also I do, I have given him a smartwatch. So I'm [42:46] should everything [42:48] Should the expectations around his behavior and when he comes back, like all fall apart. I do, I do a backup where I'm like, okay, I know, I know that I could track his location. And also, you know, [42:58] Yeah, so I think like, [43:01] Counterpoint is, [43:02] possibly for parents, like in an era where parents are so like, [43:07] I don't know what it is, but like kids aren't like going out on the like and wandering around. Like it's so crazy. I don't know why kids don't go out on the streets. [43:15] and go to their friends' houses. They'll get, like... [43:18] there's a fear in the neighborhood. Yeah. That the parents have this fear. That's like, there'll be some sort of, yeah. Abduction trafficking. There's all these like Facebook groups of moms in my neighborhood who are like always reporting suspicious behavior, whether or not it is suspicious. I don't know, but like, [43:34] And it creates a real culture of fear, which has the impact of the kids don't go out of the house. Or they have like really controlled playdates where like someone's dropping it off and there's no like walking over to a neighbor's house and...

[43:47] It's sad for me because I'm like, it's only fun for my kid to go out and play if he has other kids to play with. Otherwise he like goes to the playground and he's like by himself. Yeah. And it's also not as safe. Like part of when I was growing out at nine, it was like, [43:58] there was other kids and so there was the safety in numbers as well. And so anyway, that's sort of tangential and not exactly related to your point, but I do think there's [44:06] something in that that feels related. I mean, I think it's totally really because it's like the stakes are so different because when you're talking about a romantic partner, you're and it's like, OK, I don't track this person's location. The worst thing that happens is that they're dishonest and our relationship falls apart. I don't have a boyfriend anymore. Right. But with your child, it's like my child disappears. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where my child is. And that's a big deal. I am one thing about your story, though, that jumps out to me is like, [44:32] is the kind of moms whipping each other up. Yeah, it's crazy. It's, yeah. Is that happening in a digital space? It happens on, I'm not on these Facebook groups, but it's happening in Facebook groups. And yeah, there's like a general sort of, [44:47] fear that [44:49] my parents didn't have and i don't know that like the if you were to look at the crime statistics there would be some outsour outsized increase in crime now around kids and abductions versus when i was growing up like i it feels disproportionate to the actual risk and i do think it's being whipped in up in social media and [45:10] But like... [45:12] no one like that. That's kind of just like status quo now. And yeah, well, I think about, um, what's that? There's a citizen app and then there's the other next door.

[45:23] And I find that both of them are... [45:26] Like... [45:28] terrible like my friends who are on either one of those consistently have so much anxiety about safety right because they're constantly being notified about everything they have it's too much information too much information you don't need to know all this yeah and it like breeds racism and all of these things that like just feed off of each other and I think it's like tangential to sort of like the surveillance or consensual surveillance that you're getting into with your friends or romantic partners or whatever but I think it's sort of is all the same thing [45:58] about each other. Similar to the micro cheating thing of like, who are you liking? What are you following? What are you doing digitally? And that being like a [46:06] piece of information that's really unhealthy to an actual [46:09] human relationship. [46:12] And I'm curious about when I was looking through some of your stuff around this and then in relation to what has happened this week. Did you see the ring ad? Yes. Okay. Okay. Who approved that? Like terrible. And for those who haven't seen it, ring the like outdoor camera app. [46:31] company surveillance state, I did this ad where it was like, oh, if you lose your puppy, it was like about this family who got a dog. And then the storyline is that the child, the dog is lost and the child's sad. And Ring is like, don't worry, we can find it. And then basically showed that like every ring can be, can be, [46:50] turned on remotely, essentially that they have like the power to like use your ring camera. And then they were like, we found the dog. And everybody was like, wait, what? I didn't know...

[47:00] I didn't have all this information. I did not know that was happening. Exactly. And so I'm curious if you were to write a piece about the ring camera, [47:08] surveillance ad, what would you say about it? [47:11] Well, I mean, I think I've seen some smart pieces about it saying that like... [47:18] A lot of this stuff creeps into our lives so silently because of the convenience that it offers. Like the ring camera, it's like, oh, finally, I don't have to wonder who stole my Amazon package. Or if something were to happen at my home, I would have this video option. And then it seems to me like the ring, that ad kind of struck people by surprise. Exactly like what you're saying, where it's like, wait a second. Yeah. I have built this distributed surveillance system in my own neighborhood that's accessible to this company [47:48] to the police, to my neighbors. And it was like the frog in boiling water situation. And of course, there's been a lot of ink spilled about the access that police have to Ring cameras and like the problems that it creates. I do think that there's opt-outs though, in terms of access at a level, like company level with Ring. I think you can opt out. I'm not sure. And say like, and say... [48:08] say what exactly say opting out of um being able to remotely control or access or yeah i would hope so um a warrant or like some sort of police action yeah i'm not sure exactly it needs a fact check i'm not sure either because i think that if the police were to ask ring for that you know what i mean like there's been a crime in the neighborhood we want your camera footage i know that there's been tension about like what is the company gonna provide to law enforcement too you know and i i would love i would love to know where all of this stuff

[48:37] stops and starts. But it seems to me like people were rattled by kind of realizing the extent of like what the company can do when everybody in the neighborhood has these installed. Yeah. Okay. We have a few more minutes here. I want to talk about a piece that you wrote called TikTok's Mental Health Rabbit Hole. It's not in your head and kind of speaks to how social media, specifically TikTok and like the endless scroll and watching videos about like depression and [49:07] other mental health challenges, that it's literally all true, basically. And that this addictive behavior to an endless scroll and to TikTok is... [49:18] getting us down. And I wonder if you could just [49:20] talk a little bit about that piece. Yeah, I'm so proud of this. This story is like, this is a little bit like, [49:27] if you're a social media or tech or like algorithm nerd, this speaks to you and otherwise maybe not. But I did this story alongside a data reporter, Jeremy Merrill, and he said, [49:37] collected the, like, you know how you can go into a social media app and ask to download all your personal data? He had hundreds and hundreds of TikTok users submit their personal data to the Washington Post so that he can do this big old analysis and see what he finds. And one of the things that he found, it was this interesting effect on TikTok. [49:57] content about mental health and that includes stuff like neurological health adhd um like autism spectrum um and and also um you know very kind of normal symptoms like depression and anxiety that when you watch one of these videos it's stickier than many other types of content like

[50:17] content about sports or about Taylor Swift. And what that means is that watching one mental health video lingering on it is going to spawn more similar content than doing that on some different genre of content. Does that make sense? Yes. So I've watched one, I've signaled to the algorithm that I'm interested, and it's going to spawn more, significantly more mental health content than if I had lingered on that video about Taylor Swift. And then the opposite is also true. If I [50:47] avoid engaging, I that doesn't have the same effect as it would have on the Taylor Swift video. So I have to work harder to get it out of my feed. And I can linger for shorter and less to have it fill up my feed. So that feeling that that thing that people will describe sometimes where it's like, damn, I cannot get this content about ADHD off of my feed. Yeah. Or like, I got a little bit worried that I have borderline personality disorder. And now I can't stop seeing stuff [51:17] that's quite real. And it's hard to say why that happens. Does TikTok do it on purpose? Is it just TikTok? [51:24] Is it the algorithm learning something on its own kind of? Hard to say, but it was upsetting talking to some of these users who are like, my therapist told me to stop seeing this like OCD content or whatever. And I actually couldn't. Yeah. And this is TikTok specifically. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I buy that. Okay. Sadly, we're out of time, but we do a thing here called the shill minute.

[51:47] Which you get one minute to shill anything that you want. It can be... [51:52] Any sub stack, it could be. [51:54] getting on or off social media. It could be whatever you want. And you have 60 seconds. [52:00] What? Oh, we lost signal. [52:03] No worries. [52:07] Oh, wow, where it's frozen. [52:10] Oh, I think we're back. [52:12] We're back. Okay. 60 seconds. Okay. Mine, mine has nothing to do with tech or the internet at all. Um, but have you guys ever been, I think it's pronounced Aggies. Have you guys been to Aggies Diner on Franklin and Crown Heights? No, I had a cookie. I had a chocolate chip cookie. Incredible. This week. Um, you know, I told you I, I lost my job. My, um, boyfriend sent me one of these cookies to my house and it was, it was the saltiest cookie I've ever had in my life. [52:42] You know, it was like, it was like barely a cookie. You're like, ah, it's so, so good. Everyone, in fact, everyone should just wrap up maybe and go that way. That was a perfect show. Thank you so much. It was so nice to have you on. [52:58] Everyone should subscribe to your sub stack. Yeah, please do. Best of luck on what's next. Thanks, y'all. Appreciate it. [53:03] . [53:07] Okay. [53:08] We have two great guests with us here, Michelle Wacar and Artem Broznikoff. Michelle, CMO at Octant, which is new news. Artem, CEO at Octant. Again, new news. We'll get into that.

[53:20] Welcome to the show. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. I'm excited to be here. Okay. I figured we can start by first giving some context for listeners who might not be familiar with Octant. So give us the elevator pitch. What is Octant? So thanks, Dina. Octant is a project [53:37] that is focused on creating new funding models and the [53:42] to fund things that are not covered by market mechanisms and VC and stuff like this. [53:47] And so we have been innovating and trying to [53:51] ask hard questions and solve hard problems in terms of how do we fund open source software? How do we fund things that not necessarily have already existing models in the market? [54:04] And we have been building products and tools for the last couple of years. [54:08] and we have a product called octant v1 and octane v2 they're essentially [54:14] apps that allow community to express their preferences in terms of what kind of [54:19] open source, [54:20] projects or other projects they want to see funded and this preference is aggregated and used to fund things. [54:29] Great. I think it would be good to give us listeners a sense of the scale of impact that you guys have had across the Ethereum ecosystem over the past couple of years. Can you speak a little bit to... [54:39] that grants research so that people get the full view of what you guys have done. [54:44] Yeah, I mean, I think we're like the unsung heroes of Ethereum in a lot of ways. I think you are. And I feel like you guys need to be louder about that. Hell yeah. I should just start. Yeah. No, we've...

[54:56] i'd say if you've interacted with any part of ethereum we likely have funded it over the last two and a half years since we started running funding rounds um [55:03] Please. [55:04] given out over $12 million in grants funding to Ethereum. We're consistent funders of Protocol Guild and a lot of core aspects of Ethereum. We've done different kinds of funding rounds, Ethereum attestation services, a lot of core teams, client teams and whatnot. And so [55:18] Yeah, quite literally helping fund Ethereum and different aspects of it too. Yeah, that is also another thing that strikes me about your guys' work is that it really is across the stack. [55:31] of Ethereum. Can you speak a little bit to that? Yeah, so we've actually funding [55:35] things is cool and we've done a lot of that yeah we've done so much more work totally been investing into grants research and understanding how do you better design grants programs [55:43] How do you more effectively give out capital? How do you even measure what's being given out? Like that's some of the stuff that we funded. We've built programs too. We were actually... [55:51] Early on to the whole revenue sustainability conversation at the end of 2024, we built a program and it was an accelerator focused solely on sustainability. How do you survive without grants funding or just VC funding? Mm-hmm. [56:05] So we did that. Last year, we built a pilot creators program. And so it was to help creators level up in Ethereum, tell stories. And we ran a funding round with the Ethereum Foundation's funding coordination team where we funded and gave out equivalent of $1 million in grants to creators in Ethereum all across the board.

[56:35] of my favorite ones because a lot of these were traditional climate projects too that were doing really impactful world work all across from Ukraine to to Gaza to just literal climate relief and um [56:46] we were able to fund that and our community was supporting that. So that was really, really cool. Amazing. Okay, let's talk about your Octon V2 announcement. Tell us more. Well, for the last couple of years, we have been working on improving the existing systems and how they operate. So next week, we are releasing Octon V2. And Octon V2 is a product suite that allows different communities to fund things in the same way we have been funding a Fiorim ecosystem. So one of the things that people can do is just use their token [57:16] to lock it. [57:17] and then reward people with [57:19] their token or some other yield token and then use this to fund projects in their ecosystem. [57:25] And another thing that we pioneered is fund things with yield. So you heard about vaults in DeFi space. They're everywhere now. And so what we've done, we took the same model and you deploy the capital and you choose where yield goes. So it creates more sustainable funding instead of spending your principal capital. And there's a lot of support fatigue in this space for projects like open source and Ethereum protocol development. [57:55] You don't have to spend the capital right away, but you can just set and forget. And it's just going to find things that you care about. [58:01] And the big announcement, which is you're joining as a CEO. And Octon Labs is officially a thing. Yeah, Octon Labs is officially a thing. So I'm joining as CEO. Amazing. Congratulations to you all.

[58:15] exciting um we have a [58:18] a strong team that I'm really excited about. We have been working for the last couple years together. And I'm excited to see what we can build in the future. So Octon Labs is a vehicle that exists to continue working on the mission. [58:31] that we established in the last two years and expand and work on different new models that don't exist and pioneer them. And figure out what we can do besides just direct market mechanisms that exist out there. We're here to bring some hopium into the space, right? Like everyone's bearish on crypto. We're losing some of our best talent to AI even. But I think we're here to actually bring a lot of optimism, funding and [58:55] tackling a lot of the harder questions like, is this sustainable? How can we keep growing Ethereum and [59:00] Yeah, we're here on a really, really big ambitious task to help try to solve that. And almost like in my mind, I feel like we've got like the Avengers and Ethereum coming together. Like our team is phenomenal if you look at it. And we've got like everyone and so many more people that are also helping. [59:14] solve a lot of those challenges but artem [59:16] wrote this really interesting blog post announcing all this today. Please go give him a follow if you are watching this. We'll drop the link in the chat too. Thank you. But there's a lot more to come and we're going to be publicly building. We're sharing memos, notes. We're quite literally sharing what we're building in a way that's going to be engaging people. And if you all have ideas on how you think Ethereum can grow, reach out. It's amazing. Okay. So just so I'm clear on how it works, I could now as an organization or business, I could come to Vaults, [59:43] the Vault product. [59:44] And I could put in some capital and...

[59:48] that capital will generate yield and then I'm able to decide where that gets routed to or is there also [59:56] part of what you guys are doing is helping to route where the yield goes to help bolster [1:00:01] different ecosystem efforts? So it's both. There's a model where you just deploy a vault and you choose where it goes and that's it. And this is just direct contribution of your yield to the projects you want to support. And another model that Octon pioneered in the last couple of years is that is [1:00:18] token-based and community-based funding where there is a matching pool that exists. And it allows you as a receiver of extra rewards, [1:00:27] to decide where the matching pool goes. Not only your rewards go, but also where the matching pool goes. So like they're different, but they all redirect the yield. The question is whose principal capital you're directing, right? So if you're a community, you probably have some kind of treasury and treasury can be deployed. And that's what Octon has been doing for the last two years. [1:00:45] Golden Foundation deploys ETH into proof of stake, generates yield, and that yield has been powering this millions of dollars. [1:00:52] for the last couple of years. And if you're interested from the Ethereum side, right, and you are a project that has significantly already decided to go all in on Ethereum, or you have things at stake because you've built on Ethereum, deployed your treasury, whatever, and you actually want to tackle the question of how do we make Ethereum stronger, keep growing, sustainable, whatever you want to call it. We do have teams that are working behind the scenes with some pretty core partners. We can't just share a lot about that yet, but if you get involved,

[1:01:22] solving it and what we're thinking about and what we're going to be launching very soon. So there's definitely an exciting invitation there. So, [1:01:29] Who are you hoping to reach primarily through... [1:01:34] what you guys are doing now? Well, that's a very good question, because as we are reorienting [1:01:40] towards OctonLabs, we ask ourselves, what are the next steps? [1:01:44] And the original vision is basically for every community that wants to fund their needs. [1:01:49] and it is open for every community. [1:01:52] But the... [1:01:53] The reason Octalabs exists is so we can ask hard questions. [1:01:57] and better questions. And that's why I want to find partners who are really curious about [1:02:02] creating novel, [1:02:03] funding models both using our existing tools and also creating the new ones. So we want to work with some big treasuries. [1:02:12] who want to experience with this and also some smaller treasuries who want to fund smaller experiments yeah and we want to like really iterate and learn and drive to different results and then share it with the public so that's kind of our focus right now in 2026 and people can both use octane v2 and also reach out to us [1:02:33] to work on different funding experiments. So we [1:02:36] gonna not only use the mechanism that we built, but we also want to use mechanisms we haven't built yet. [1:02:41] And it's going to be [1:02:43] prediction market experiments. It can be some other experiments we want to see in the world and how effective it is. [1:02:49] Fun. Okay, I have a specific question. [1:02:51] Does public goods funding need a rebrand?

[1:02:54] 100% yes. [1:02:57] All right. [1:03:01] So, [1:03:02] We joke about this at Octant. Anything can be a public good. The show is a public good. You can very easily argue that everything is a public good. Like how do you argue something isn't? And let's define it for people who maybe... [1:03:13] don't know what it means. In the traditional world, public goods are things that you have access to. They're open. They're accessible. They're open. They're accessible. They're open. They're open. [1:03:19] They're non-rivalrous like there's a very clear definition of like what your expectation is from where you live in and what you can expect like your streets. [1:03:27] and your electricity and just different aspects of things, I would say. But in our space, very quickly, because we did start off running rounds for funding public goods, and that was cool. But then... [1:03:40] there were a lot of opinions and thoughts around, hey, we're a public good too. And there's a lot of communities who are very strongly of the opinion that they are public goods. And so with that categorization, we quickly realized if you don't actually define what an impactful project is, and especially in the scope of a funding round, [1:03:55] if you're not going to define what it isn't, everyone thinks they can apply and they deserve a lot of funding. And they're the only ones who should get funding. So I just think I'm sensing some trauma here. I have so many grifters. I am just, this is not an expose, but you know what, if you're writing a piece, please message me. Yeah. Pretty much every grants operator knows who the grifters are. And there's a lot of grifters in this space. I could, yeah, I hope they move on to AI. Yeah. Yeah. Name and shame. Name and shame. No, they're actually public

[1:04:25] don't because a lot of these folks are public darlings. [1:04:29] in Ethereum as well. [1:04:31] are so sweet and lovely and seemingly like credible, but absolute grifters and behind the scenes and wallet transactions will show you a lot of needs. So you should do your own research. Check the receipts. Um, [1:04:41] But going back to public, yes, yes, I think it's too vague a word. I think it needs to be better defined, and especially in funding context, like I think our... [1:04:49] thing is like, you know what, define what impact is and define scope if you're talking and thinking about what you want to fund. Totally. But I think part of what I'm getting from where you guys are moving to now is that like, let's just say this vaults product, that fund, the yield doesn't necessarily have to route to public goods. It could route back to drive sustainability for whatever org or business. A hundred percent. The whole point of vaults is sustainable growth. We've been able to fund our operations fully sustainably. It's not because our budgets are, you know, being [1:05:19] people get laid off in an exodus of budget cuts and [1:05:22] That's a shame, but it's a shame because [1:05:25] It's because it wasn't sustainable how things were being funded in crypto. Like when you see a bull market, it's like everybody's rolled out the red carpet. [1:05:33] And then you see markets crashing and then everyone's actually seriously impacted because there's some fantastic talent in the market right now. Vaults are different. If you actually have a crypto treasury that's big enough, think about sustainable yield. Use your yield to fund your marketing budgets or growth budgets or whatever you want to fund. That's up to you. We don't have to decide what you're funding. That's totally up to you. So that's one of the cool things about it. Yeah, that's really cool. Sustainable funding concept and venture funding. Like, are they holding hands? Are they not wanting to be in the same room together?

[1:06:03] Sure. [1:06:04] Well, actually, this is very much related to the question that we just discussed about public goods. [1:06:11] And I think it goes down to the core of how we even think about goods and things we consume and things we invest in. [1:06:20] And I think we need a different framework. [1:06:23] and in [1:06:24] goes back to the question about like venture capital. So how venture capital analyzes things. They try to figure out what kind of risks they're taking. [1:06:32] Yeah. [1:06:33] and then they invest because they expect some return. Yeah. So there has to be some kind of revenue stream that feeds back into the capital. So capital grows more capital, but then it can bootstrap things that are going to benefit people with money. [1:06:47] Then the question becomes, how do you find things that don't have like [1:06:51] a business model directly. [1:06:53] or the things that benefit everyone. So Ethereum protocol layer doesn't have a business model. [1:07:00] There are protocols that earn billions and billions of dollars on top of this. [1:07:04] and the foundational layer isn't solved. [1:07:07] And it's like a market failure. [1:07:10] And, uh, [1:07:11] One of the key things here is that [1:07:14] One thing is money and the second thing is risk. [1:07:18] And I think one of the key problems right now in the world is that the companies with a lot of computational resources, [1:07:27] They minimize risk, which is obvious. That's what everybody is doing, but using enormous amount of data that they can analyze.

[1:07:34] and then invest in the things that will can bring the capital back [1:07:39] back to the source. [1:07:41] And if you have more computation of power than everybody else, then obviously you can minimize risk for yourself. [1:07:49] And if you try to ask somebody, well, maybe you want to share this risk, like some kind of insurance model, [1:07:56] then it becomes a question of [1:07:58] legal and it's not part of our mandate etc. [1:08:02] And the problem is that we're not really [1:08:05] able to [1:08:07] advanced models that fund things that don't necessarily just give back capital to people who provide this capital to get more capital on capital. And there is a relationship there [1:08:20] But I think we need to align incentives between not only companies, VC, but also with the larger public. [1:08:28] And when we... [1:08:31] experience with a mechanism like prediction markets maybe that allow people to create incentive alignment between people who research and provide clear signals in terms of what can be funded in terms of [1:08:44] general public [1:08:46] Right? [1:08:46] then maybe we can start funding things that not necessarily benefit the few, but can benefit more people in the world. I would say there's another thread here, right? We see funding is all about... [1:08:57] High risk and high reward. [1:08:59] Sustainable funding usually isn't. And we see that from what currently gets funded. Like, what is the incentive to be more effective? And how are you being measured?

[1:09:07] We don't always have that. And this is a problem we saw with grants funding where when products didn't have to report to anybody and they just felt like, [1:09:14] We should exist because we think we do. [1:09:16] that's not going to push them to become more effective, efficient, or even showcase and talk about what they're doing. Because there's no one, there's no like big funding daddy, essentially, right? That's going to fund everybody. And that was a reality most projects had to deal with. Like we were one of the last, maybe one of the last two, maybe three funding sources when it came to just open source funding or whatever. And so most projects had to realize that. And so I think what I've been noticing is we have a problem in Ethereum, which is sustainability. [1:09:46] scale. And when I attended breakpoint, that was one of the [1:09:48] first things that stood out to me was every single project knows how to talk about distribution. They've scaled, they've got experiments, they're way ahead of the curve when it comes to where they're at in their builder journey. [1:10:00] Part of that is because of VC funding and they're getting VC funding because they're at that level. We need that in Ethereum. And I know there's a lot more work that's being done that even the EF is thinking about in terms of building these revenue models and sustainability models. But I think [1:10:13] sustainable projects that have that funding should also be incentivized to produce fast results and to show scale and to do that work. [1:10:20] we hope we can solve part of that by contributing like we've run one program where we're able to help projects level up and think about that but there's so much more work that needs to be done so i actually think the [1:10:30] connect a lot and there's a lot we can learn even in terms of who should get funded. Maybe not in that exact, hey, you need to scale like 100x right now, but definitely 10x if not more. Okay. Part of the problem is that they are right now disconnected, right? The VC funding obviously is needed and they invest in certain projects, but how do you connect the dots between the projects that not necessarily minimize the risks and connect this to VC funding? And this is kind of the problem we need to think about a lot. Yeah.

[1:10:56] I didn't realize I felt so strongly about this topic until you brought it up. I love it. I'm like, you're in your bronze age mentality. Whatever for Ethereum. Okay, thank you guys both so much for coming on. [1:11:07] Welcome back anytime. I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more of you. And yeah, just appreciate your support of Boys Club so much. And we're so happy to have you guys. [1:11:15] Thank you. We're excited to be here. [1:11:18] . [1:11:22] Really excited about our next guest here, Nick. [1:11:26] Dever is a Barron's reporter covering the gambling industry and prediction... [1:11:32] markets. Indeed. Busy week for you. There's lots going on, obviously. But yeah, it's a fun time to be reporting on this. Totally. I'm sure. You're right in the thick of it. Okay, so we're just coming off a huge weekend for the prediction market beat with the Super Bowl. We have here $1 billion traded on Calci alone. Last year was $27 million in total volume. The framing of this [1:12:02] she won. Maybe that could be debated. But when you as a reporter working this beat, when you saw these numbers, what did you think? [1:12:10] I think it sounds about right. I will say with the 1 billion number, they opened that market on like, [1:12:15] February 15th of last year. So they've been taking bets on who the Super Bowl champion will be for a year. That's why that number is so high. Oh, it's not that there was like they didn't do like a billion dollars like, oh, okay. That would be insane. The fine print. But it's still a lot of money. Obviously, prediction markets have they can get to markets that don't have typical regulated sports betting, obviously. And as we know, sports are like the overwhelming majority of the business for prediction markets.

[1:12:45] But like, I'm just curious what your feeling is around this as an industry. And I think I do want to talk about the gambling industry because I think there's a lot there that we can unpack. But just prediction markets, like it's the zeitgeist, they're everywhere. Yeah. What's your feeling on what's happening? Yeah. So I have to like try and maintain like some level of like remove and objectivity about this stuff. But like, I think you can objectively say that it's crazy. You know, a year ago, no one cared about these businesses. Like six months ago, no one cared about these businesses. [1:13:15] and now they're worth like $12 billion. They have tons of customers. They're giving free groceries away. Like there's the growth that is happening is really crazy to see. And they still have this kind of like, [1:13:28] startup mindset, the way that everyone works there that isn't like on the PR team is under 26. Right. So you still have this kind of like, move fast, do things quickly, send the tweet attitude that kind of pervades the whole industry. [1:13:42] And. [1:13:43] Yeah, the way that [1:13:45] I don't know. I think that most... [1:13:47] people who aren't like super into this stuff are like, "Why is gambling all over my Oscars?" Or Golden Globes or whatever. I think that people are generally... [1:13:57] I don't know. We were already at a point with sports betting where it was like, oh, I can't even watch sports without seeing a fanatics ad. And now it's okay. Well, if we made everything gambling or like, I mean, they get really sensitive about whether or not it's gambling or betting or trading. I mean, you can make the argument that anything is gambling to a certain extent. But yeah, there. Yeah, everything is gambling these days. Do you?

[1:14:22] partake [1:14:23] I don't sports bet just because I don't watch sports really. But I have lost $19 betting that Bad Bunny would not perform with Lady Gaga. I was like, no way. No way. Clearly. I know. That was bad information. Bad intel. I lost $19. Easy print. No, but I do have more money on the Oscars as well. I have to like, I can't. [1:14:53] - Well, we had a meeting with our legal team [1:14:56] and they were like don't bet on anything that comes even close to your coverage area oh totally it's just an ethical thing i can't own [1:15:05] individual securities from an ethics point of view. Okay. So I have to stick to the Oscars. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Sinners. It's going to be sinners, guys. No. 12% chance right now. Easy. Easy buy. Easy buy. No one battle after another. Okay. So there's so much happening in this space if you're paying attention. And sometimes I wish I weren't. But there was an interview yesterday on Squawk Box with Tarek, the founder of Kalshi. [1:15:35] It was... [1:15:36] As someone who does a bunch of emotional labor, it's very hard to watch. It was tough. It was tough. And they did a great job. They doubled down. They kept pressing him. [1:15:47] you could see him looking at his publicist, who I'm sure was like, "Shut the f*** up. Like, end it now." And basically, like, what the conversation was, was essentially like,

[1:15:56] the conversation that everybody's having around insider trading and what is basically [1:16:02] what is like material non-public information and where are you classifying that and where are you drawing the line and tarik essentially saying that people have been doing this with the stock market forever and it's no different [1:16:14] What is your take on that? Yeah. Kudos to CNBC. Remember they have to have a corporate partnership with Calchi. I saw a tweet that was like, can someone remind CNBC that I will also disclose that Dow Jones, my employer has a partnership with Polymarket, but it doesn't affect my reporting anyway. Okay. So yeah, my take on the insider trading thing. Yeah, this stuff is like impossible to police or really to put too fine of a point on. Right. There was like the market about, [1:16:44] Taylor Swift get proposed to or married this year. And like, right before that came out, there were a bunch of trades on Polymarket looking like we're going to have Taylor Swift get proposed to, right? So, [1:16:57] If that person that was trading was the photographer employed by Taylor Swift, that's insider trading. Because under the Commodity Exchange Act, you have to, if you're misappropriating information that's like from your employer, that is insider trading. But if Taylor Swift tells one of her friends that Travis is going to propose that afternoon, that friend can trade on it because there's no financial incentive, right?

[1:17:27] husband who tells their friend is that person an insider? Maybe. Is the CFTC or Polymarket or Calci able to follow the line of information well enough to freeze this account and like refer it to the DOJ or whatever? Does the DOJ care if someone makes like $4,000 on Polymarket? Like I don't know. These are kind of unanswered questions. But the fact is that I think insider [1:17:57] on platforms like Polymarket. I will say Kalshi, I've talked to their enforcement team. They are very serious people. They're [1:18:06] monitoring system catches accounts often. They say that he was, the lawyer I was talking to, his name's Bobby Dinalt, he's a nice guy. He said that the system is sometimes too flaggy and it catches things too often. So he likes it. He would say that. He would say that. I mean, yeah, we have to take him as a word. But I mean, [1:18:23] I think that kind of monitoring system is [1:18:27] unique to CalShea. And I think that Polymarket to some extent [1:18:32] I think I haven't done any reporting to necessarily confirm this, but [1:18:37] I think that [1:18:39] It seems like insider trading is kind of part of the business model from like a [1:18:44] like let's get fun tweets out there. Like the Polymarket money account, like an associated X count, [1:18:49] posts like, "Oh, this person just put like $200,000 on Iran strikes, new wallet, new account." Like, oh, pretty crazy. Yeah, yeah. I get those tweets all the time. These are like tweets that the official Polymarket account is putting out. So,

[1:19:02] The like Maduro $400,000 insider trade thing. They caught that guy. But that's like a great news cycle for Polymarket. Way more people found out about Polymarket when that happened, right? All press is good press. All press is good press. Absolutely. And when you're... [1:19:15] Doing it. [1:19:16] overseas and unregulated. Yeah, it really doesn't matter. We'll see how things change when they really come online under the CFTC. [1:19:24] in the US and whether or not they kind of shift things up. [1:19:28] yeah i mean there's also the argument to be made of like do you need [1:19:33] insider information for prediction markets to be accurate or efficient. That's the other thing that comes to mind to me. We had a trader, a prediction market, like real DJing guy on the stream a couple months ago, and he... [1:19:45] was very much like it's a trading strategy at this point. Yeah. You're following. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you have bots set up and you're looking for the insider trade so that you could copy trade or you could take some sort of perspective against or for it. And so, like, whether or not it's a business model, it's part of the business at Polymarker. It's certainly a part of how people are approaching their trading and trading strategy specifically. Well, also, like, manufacturing the thing that they're trading on. Like, there was the guy who did the shirtless mankini thing. [1:20:15] Did you guys see this? [1:20:16] who basically there's this influencer and there was a, I believe it was on Polymarket, a Polymarket market around whether someone would streak during the Super Bowl. And... [1:20:27] he did he did it himself and he he made four hundred thousand dollars and he paid the five thousand dollar fine and he was like big brain move honestly so i i think like that

[1:20:39] I really like gambling. I think gambling school, I think partially because I don't have an addictive personality. So I can like, it's hard for me to imagine feeling like addicted to gambling as a thing. That's what most people who don't. I mean, no shade. You're like, that's what gambling addicts are. I mean, it's not, I mean, it takes, it usually takes around seven years for someone to identify that they have a gambling problem. Really? Okay. Some self-reflection. Woo! Okay. [1:21:09] But when people are like, oh, this is so dark. Like I saw a lot of rhetoric on the timeline around like, [1:21:14] There were so many ads about gambling. This is so dark. Like, what world are we living in? And I'm kind of like, but then when I see this, I'm like, [1:21:21] Oh, a world in which like you are manufacturing... [1:21:24] you're betting on something, you're then manufacturing that thing to happen and then financially gaining from it. That's where I'm like, whoa, we're getting into some weird stuff. Are prediction markets a thermometer or a thermostat? Are you making changes that... Are you doing things that are going to cause events to happen by creating a market for them to happen? Or are they accurately pricing the possibility of things happening? These are the questions. [1:21:54] this after [1:21:56] I don't know if you remember a couple weeks ago, Representative Ilhan Omar was attacked during a press conference in Minnesota. Someone came from the audience with like a syringe, sprayed her with it. And within 24 hours, within 12 hours, there was polymarket markets on what liquid was Ilhan Omar sprayed with. Was the attack on Ilhan Omar staged? And I'm like, okay, so I call the PR about this.

[1:22:26] they did not tell me what it was. The only criteria for if a market can be created is if there's [1:22:32] evidence of demand on both sides. That's it. So if you can... [1:22:37] make it appear that there's going to be a lot of activity on both sides of the will someone streak market, you can get that market created pretty easily. And then you can go streaking and make 400 grand. [1:22:48] You had a scoop this week about how the CFTC is essentially getting hollowed out. Yes. And that has pretty big implications for this industry. Tell us more about it. So on Friday, I heard from a source that the Division of Enforcement branch in the Chicago office of the CFTC was down to one enforcement attorney left. So there is one trial attorney left at the CFTC in Chicago. [1:23:18] As we know, Chicago, pretty important place for futures. That's where the Chicago Mercantile Exchange is. It's where the global futures market was born in the 1850s. It's kind of like the spiritual center of the commodities market. And at the CFTC right now, there are now on Monday, I reported updated the report that there's now no enforcement lawyers at the Chicago office of the CFTC. So there were once 20. So we've gone from- Down bad. [1:23:48] gone from a team of 20 enforcement lawyers to none in Chicago. That's not to say there are no division of enforcement staff throughout the CFTC, but there's none in Chicago. And the Chicago office in particular was known as kind of a group of heavy hitters. They're kind of the baddest of the baddest. They take on the tough cases. They're who prosecuted CZ and Binance. They're who got the record $12.7 billion settlement from FTX. That's Chicago CFTC enforcement, right? So these guys,

[1:24:18] are really good at their jobs. It's not exactly a glamorous position to be an enforcement lawyer at the CFTC, but you know, they had been there for 26 years and there's a lot of institutional experience. And my reporting suggests that reputation that that office had made it an appealing target for reduction in forces and layoffs under acting chair Caroline Pham. So, [1:24:41] Basically, these people have been retaliated against for [1:24:46] keeping the market safe, you know, doing their jobs. I had a [1:24:49] former chief trial lawyer at the office who'd been there for 26 years. He told me, "If I was a different person, I'd launch a crypto scam right now because there's no cops on the beat." Oh. Right? So this is the environment... You heard it here first, my friends. ...that we're living in, right? And I mean, that was... When you get a quote like that, you're like, [1:25:09] Is this person being hyperbolic? Am I just like... [1:25:12] into this because it's going to make a great kicker. But this is someone who has seen the inner workings of this agency, seen the changes in the commodities market over the last 26 years. Think about how much has changed in that time. And he's saying that now is the best time to launch a crypto scam. And so now under the new leadership at the CFTC, Mike Selig, there's a question of whether or not he will return some of that stuff, whether or not he'll

[1:25:42] And yeah, there's just not, there's no cops on the beat. It just seems insane. [1:25:46] like the convergence of the of our times where like [1:25:50] we've never had this prevalent and it's never been easier to gamble and to [1:25:56] and prediction market craze, the whole thing. And then for this to be happening feels really unprecedented. Should we go to groceries? Yeah. Okay. Last week, big stories. Big stories. Big stories. Big stories. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Hit the timeline where first day one, CalShe announced they were doing free groceries. [1:26:17] in New York City. Clearly a nod to the Mom Donnie campaign. And that was Monday or I think that was the beginning of the week. And then the next day, Polymarket came out and said, [1:26:30] we're doing free groceries you have a grocery we have a grocery store we kind of leased it's the polymarket yeah and tell us about it so the the timeline actually on on monday terek and the team at kalshi posted that they're going to be giving away free groceries in 24 hours you know pull up and then that was starting at noon and at noon that is when polymarket sent its announcement [1:27:00] But this idea, the quote was this idea has been in the works for a long time. So I really don't know if that I'm willing to believe that they genuinely both just had the same idea. You are?

[1:27:14] Yeah, I don't know. That's really generous of you. It is. I think that's very generous of you. I mean, yeah, I don't know. It's just so silly overall. But I mean, it shows the... I think it's a great example of the way that these companies are marketing themselves, which is to go viral on social media. They have... There was a guy I met at the Kalshi groceries event. So you went to both? No, I did not go to the Polly Market one. Sorry. I haven't been to the Polly Market. Okay, you went to the Kalshi groceries. I did go to the Kalshi one. Yeah. [1:27:44] like 11,000 [1:27:45] There's like two CalShe staffers there setting up. They're like putting up these six foot tall like banners that have like the prediction market questions on them. And one of the guys that was there, his name is Morris Gindi. Shout out Morris. He's 18 years old. He works for CalShe in their growth department. And the way that he got his job is he spent like six grand, seven grand on a plane ticket and behind home plate seat at like a World Series playoff game. [1:28:15] green hoodie on that just said dollar sign yes and so espn posts him on tiktok like twice the videos go viral and so they they hire him they hire him um his job title is stuntman okay okay i've seen this um kids these days yeah kids these days yeah yeah what a crazy life right to be 18 you live in manhattan you work at calci i don't actually your job title is stuntman it's like [1:28:38] It's incredible. It's right for a miniseries. Yeah, yeah. No, it'll be a fun B-plot. Yeah, I mean, it really just shows the way that these companies are trying to market themselves.

[1:28:52] the way that they're trying to break through. And at this point, you know, we forget these, [1:28:56] these things have only been around for like a year in the public consciousness. So they're still trying to grow. They're still trying to acquire customers. And you have to also remember that [1:29:04] There's not a lot of difference between trading on from like a consumer point of view. I will say at the Calci event, it did seem a little bit haphazard. Okay. However, we're putting up banners. We're like taping posters to the wall. It starts in an hour and there's two staffers there. I've been there. I have been there. There's no comms people there either, which I was shocked at. Like I'm a reporter like wandering around talking to employees and like no one stopping me. So nice. [1:29:34] On the other point, like they had the CEO of Westside Market was like, we have been wanting to work with Calci and give back to the community. So I really don't know. I think it's kind of impossible to say. Yeah, I'll do some more reporting. Totally. We'll see. Okay. [1:29:49] You have, this has been such a pleasure. I hope we have you back many times. We have a thing here where you do one minute and you shill anything. Okay. [1:29:58] And your time starts now. [1:30:02] Print media. We're going to chill print media. Sorry, guys. That's what you get for bringing me on. Next time there's a sunny Saturday, go down to the corner store, pick up a copy of Barron's. We're in print. Pick up a copy of the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, New York Post, whatever your flavor is. Order a subscription to New Yorker, New York Mag, and read it. Just read it, guys. It's so nice. It's so nice to have a story unfold in your hand

[1:30:32] through it it's just like a good feeling and i think for me it's so romantic to be living in new york city and have a copy of the times open in the park with a bagel and you're just reading wow like it's an unbeatable vibe it's so much better than being on twitter i'm sorry i love that that's a great show i'm supportive of that show um thank you so much for coming on yeah perfect perfect and hope to have you back yeah see you guys next time okay guys that's our show that's our show [1:31:04] Okay, that's our show this week. Join us live on Twitter every Wednesday at noon. Or here, I guess.