Ep 181: Feelings Check In on creating a monocultural event with Ņ̨͈̯̻̪̥̥ͅick S̘͓͙usi

[00:00] Like, is it election themed? [00:01] Uh-huh. [00:02] Okay, well, we're recording this podcast pre-election, day before the election, but this doesn't come out until we're now two weeks in the future. So whatever has happened has happened. Has happened. [00:12] The Feelings Check-In is a podcast for people who love to listen to two women overshare about the challenges of building a business, navigating careers in tech, and trying to have a personal life. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? [00:32] No. [00:33] Just boys club. Hi. Hey, welcome to the feelings check in. This is a podcast where Dina and I bring on, well, sometimes talk about our own feelings and sometimes bring on friends, thoughtful people, think boys, etc. And girls and everyone and girls think boys are gender neutral term. It totally is a gender neutral term. Yeah. To talk about their feelings about a specific topic. And today we had a friend of the pod. [00:59] friend of the pod who do we have on dina i said this in the podcast that he's the second time guest and that's a rare air to breathe also second time man guest i think that's like trevor second time man guest trevor and him [01:12] him i think that's potentially it yeah a second time man guest is huge i should have underlined that and let him know how special that is i think you made it pretty clear he was like thanks thanks [01:23] Ha ha ha ha ha. [01:25] It's just also like so few men. Uh-huh. Totally. And I have so much time for him. So anyway, Nick Soucy, strategist, researcher, writer, think boy extraordinaire, exploring the forces, technological, societal, and psychological that shape our identity, the

[01:41] perception and culture, executive director of strategy at dot dot dash, which is an experience innovation agency previously led strategy at complex as well as Jay-Z's former media company. Great guy. [01:53] Great guy. Great guy. Great conversation. We talked about a piece that he's just written. That's about monocultural events and how they start wars online and what that means for us in... [02:06] our lives as people who are on the internet um so it's a great conversation and i hope you like it [02:14] you [02:15] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way. If you're ready to check out [02:45] to kraken.com backslash boys club and see what crypto can be not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive inc [02:57] On today's podcast, we have Nick Sousi, friend of the pod, second time guest. Nick is a extreme thought leader. [03:05] which is a Stefa Linsig coined. Kerr, welcome to the show, Nick. Thank you. Clarification for... [03:11] viewers that's t-h-o-t that's important clarification important very important good note good note

[03:17] Yeah. Thanks for having me back. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to say there's only two or three, three or four people maybe now that have been second time guests and you are in that small circle of trust and we're excited to have you there. Great. Honored. Putting it in the Twitter bio for sure. Two time Boys Club guest. Okay. Nick, you wrote a piece recently. If you want [03:47] today. Do you want to give a little synopsis of what that piece does? And then we can jump into some questions. Yeah, absolutely. One definition real quick. So when we say we're going to be talking a lot about monocultural events, what that means is these unifying cultural experiences that are shared by a large group or mass of people all at the same moment in time, like we are all in sync, right? Election day. Election day would be a great one. Yes, we'll talk about that for sure. [04:17] One is I'm sure the same for you. Like it seems like there's these constant debates about culture and also specifically monoculture every day, day in, day out that we yearn for monoculture. We need this to connect with each other through shared experiences, debates about culture, monoculture. Is it dead? Is it still a thing? Also, if monoculture events can still even happen anymore. [04:37] due to our niche algorithmic feeds and also having just so many more options and choice over media channels and platforms like where we're actually consuming content. At the same time, I don't know about you, but every time I open up my phone or social media, I feel like it is a barrage of war or like conflict adjacent content, whether it's Kamala versus Trump, Drake and Kendrick beef, just the comments section on Twitter, TikTok, like it's a mess, right?

[05:07] who's going to win the World Series. And my mother-in-law is texting me something an hour before this about how [05:13] we might be entering a civil war and everyone's like investing in bunkers, right? Like everything [05:18] feels like war and conflict. And that all said, I really just had this curiosity and wanted to explore and understand more. A, what is it actually that gets us all in sync? Thinking about the same things, talking about the same things, acting upon the same things all at once together. And B, which I think is related, is it just feels like everything is conflict right now. [05:38] "Is there something going on here?" And so that was the intent of exploring this through this piece that you mentioned, and kind of telling this story about the relationship between monoculture war and media as told through the lens of the Drake and Kendrick beef. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about that. Bring to life this idea of a monocultural war with the Drake and Kendrick. You do this really well in the piece and it's at the beginning as a framing. So can you talk a little bit about that conflict? [06:05] and sort of what it teaches us about this type of experience online. Yeah. So I'm sure for a lot of us, I guess it was May right earlier this year. [06:15] we could not escape drake and kendrick in our feeds for better for worse i think it was great i think it was very entertaining it felt like this monocultural event like you couldn't [06:23] escape it, whether you're in hip hop, Twitter or like product VC tech bro, Twitter, like [06:28] everyone was talking about it the gamut the absolute gamut gamut that is the spectrum yeah um yeah it just felt like you couldn't escape it and that felt like

[06:39] a good example of yes, these monoculture events can still exist. It's not that they can't, like that was definitely one. [06:45] And I was looking at is like, what are other examples of this? Other music beefs throughout hip hop, there's plenty. I was using Google Trends as a proxy, essentially for measuring where these spikes happen in search. And if you look at all these music beefs, like that is always the most popular search moment for all these artists that are beefing. [07:05] It's the same thing in movie, TV, Hollywood world, Chris Rock and Will Smith, the slap up on stage. [07:12] biggest monocultural moment for both of them and the Academy Awards in past several years. Same thing in sports, some of the biggest sporting events, [07:19] World Cup. [07:20] Super Bowl. [07:21] also big monocultural events, and then war itself in media. It's like always the most viewed content across all mediums: social media, TV, radio, it's the same. [07:31] It just strikes me that there is this pattern [07:34] of war slash conflict that it seems to always bubble to the top. Why is that? Is the exploration of this? Is part of it that conflict is the most interesting thing to look at as a human? Like, is there just like a deep thing in us that two people or forces that aren't seeing eye to eye, like that is by definition engaging for humans? Does it feel like it's at that root level? Or do you feel like it's charged by the algorithms? And also, do you feel like this monocultural [08:04] offline too. So for one, I think there's a common thread that I'm seeing across all these examples. Music,

[08:10] movies, sports, actual war, politics. I think there are some common threads [08:15] between all these things. One is [08:18] rage, there's like this element of rage that runs across all of them rage, even though it might not feel good is also addictive, like it releases dopamine into our brains, it like keeps us in a cycle of rage. And I think war and more dramatic conflicts are definitely these [08:34] spectacles that elicit rage. I say in there, to me war feels like the ultimate rage bait, which we can talk about more. So I think rage is one ingredient. I think the second is [08:45] mythology, which you were kind of touching on. We love a good story or narrative that neatly fits into this oversimplified binary of good versus evil. [08:54] and war and these big conflicts are built around these myths of like, you have one side that is definitely good and one side that is definitely evil and there's like no [09:02] room for kind of gray space in between or conversation. [09:07] That's second. [09:09] And the third is identity. And I think that we are [09:12] definitely wired. We are social creatures. We are wired for identity, tribalism, finding meaning in those things. And part of what war and conflict does is it challenges us to choose a side. [09:22] and participate in something that feels [09:25] bigger than us [09:27] in ourselves and really fight to prove [09:30] who you are and what you believe. And so I think those are three ingredients that feel consistent across a lot of the examples that we're starting to touch on. There's two other factors at play too, which you were also touching on. One is media, like media is a consistent thread through all these two. Part of the role that media plays is it amplifies and carries and perpetuates

[09:53] the rage and the myths and the identity and the meaning so that it just kind of snowballs and begets more war and conflict and further and further as it continues to scale. And [10:04] Similarly, I also think the tradition of ritual plays a similar but different role too, where [10:11] a lot of these things feel almost like this choreography [10:15] of revisiting this dance of conflict again and again. I don't think [10:20] ritual is necessarily a prerequisite, like the Drake and Kendrick beef. [10:24] reaching monocultural status is not a ritual [10:28] But I do think if you look at things that are even bigger than that, like the Super Bowl or the World Cup or something, [10:34] those are very much steeped in tradition. It's the same [10:37] time every year, every four years, whatever the cycle is, right? And we're waiting and anticipating, expecting these things to come that also continues us on this cycle and further perpetuates and amplifies. [10:48] And maybe if Drake and Kendrick decide to do this again next May, it'll be even bigger and they can make it a thing. But, uh... [10:54] We'll see. Let's talk a little bit about [10:56] the difference between this and Rage Bait. So the first episode we all did together was about Rage Bait Online. Can you tell us, well, maybe define Rage Bait a little bit and then how this idea... [11:08] plays off of or is an extension or maybe a build on that concept. Right. Rage bait, as we talked about last time, is this... [11:17] manipulative tactic to elicit outrage and pushing us towards this goal of driving engagement or revenue

[11:26] maybe changing your belief about something. It could be anything, right? And so [11:31] Last time I remember we talked about, I think mostly silly examples, chef reactions being one. You see people hosing off chef Boyardee ravioli in the backyard. [11:42] throwing it on the grill, sprinkling it with cinnamon sugar, putting it in a bowl of milk at the end, spoiler alert. Like, just doing intentionally... [11:49] insane, heinous, ridiculous, wrong, fake, whatever shit to get people to lose their minds in the comments. And that just like boosts its position in the algorithm. So it shows up in everyone's feed. [11:58] Last week I saw, you know, people now [12:02] stealing stories off of the subreddit "Am I the Asshole?" [12:06] and reading it as if it's their own story on TikTok and using these conflict and drama filled [12:12] stories to incite rage and go viral and drive up their followers and engagement. Like I said before, to me, war feels like the ultimate rage bait. It's not only eliciting rage, but it's also doing it at this targeted, deeper level that touches on identity and myth. And it's almost asking... [12:31] these questions of like, are you and your people good or evil? [12:35] Like, are you safe or in danger? Are you gaining status through conflict or losing status? Like, are you upholding your honor? [12:42] or being disgraced. There's this implicit questioning that I think that comes through this rage and conflict and it takes it from [12:50] generally stupid shit like the Chef Boyardee ravioli to [12:55] a level that feels connected to

[12:57] individual and collective identity and also morality too. In the case of the Drake and Kendrick beef, you can debate which one of them won. From my point of view, [13:07] The winner was neither of them necessarily, it was Universal Music Group, because they're both signed to UMG. The conflict generated billions of streams. [13:16] it results in millions and [13:18] tens of millions of dollars. And so it's like, who benefits from our rage, right? Like going back to the rage bait question. [13:25] as both spectators and participants in these conflicts. And I feel like you could say maybe Kendrick or maybe Drake, but definitely UMG in that case. One thing that I can see really clearly in the rage bait to monocultural war pipeline is when you have a side, when you feel... [13:42] like empowered to be on as you're saying like a side of a thing that feels like so much more important than oh this thing pissed me off and this woman took the knife and put it in the island i was another one of the rage bait things where it's just like oh my gosh and everybody's losing their mind but there was this tiktok that i remember that went absolutely viral and there was this conflict of these two girls who basically were talking about how one of the girl's boyfriends [14:12] I took to TikTok to basically talk about their relationship and then everybody took a side. And it had such a longer viral cycle because you're collecting information, you're making decisions about who was... [14:27] right and who was wrong and then you're like empowered to defend

[14:31] whoever it is you think [14:33] should win in the end. And I think so much of what you're talking about in this piece is really that idea, whether it's Kanye and Taylor Swift or whatever, like choosing a side and then feeling like a warrior in that battle has a much longer viral. [14:47] lead time, I feel like. I also feel like the algorithm is just designed for that. When I think about when I'm stopping a scroll on something, like nine times out of 10, probably, is that there's some unanswered question that has come up since I saw whatever the first frame of the video is. There's something in my mind that I'm looking to have resolved. And I have a question that's open. And it could be as serious as something around Palestine and Israel, or it could be [15:17] like hit the bottles and they see if the bottles explode. There's a question in that, which is, is the bottle going to explode? And the reason that you stop the scroll is to like get that answered. There's something that you want to decide. And I think to Natasha's point, it's taking a side or answering some sort of question. That's what we are being trained to do right now. But I guess arguably, like that's a revealed preference of humanity. That's something that we already want to do all the time. This just gives us a way to do it really efficiently, [15:47] Yeah. [15:47] I'm wondering if you agree with that or not. One thing I'll add is I think that they say that hairdressers are actually like the happiest. It's like the happiest profession you can have because you start and finish a task every hour on the hour. And it's really clear that you've completed the thing that you set out to start. And I feel like we're trying to front run that online. We're trying to like get that dopamine hit with watching the bottle break in a way that I think is making a smooth brain. But here's what you think, Nick.

[16:17] Yeah, I mean... [16:18] Part of what I'm hearing in this goes back to the point about the myth ingredient. Like a lot of this is good storytelling to how you're saying [16:27] these narratives are constructed, there's like a question that's asked, then you want to know the answer, right? Like, [16:32] A lot of this is kind of [16:34] story structure 101 almost to some degree, but [16:38] how that then is used to inspire and motivate people to do [16:42] amazing creative things and then like the worst things in history. A lot of it's still the same fundamentals of how you build myths. [16:50] Something else you were kind of touching on too about [16:53] Is it human nature? Like, I would not say I'm an expert on this. But one thing I've been thinking a lot about just in exploring a lot of this is that question. And I don't know. [17:02] that I buy [17:04] All of this is purely human nature. I think some of this almost feels like conditioned cultural values that we assume. [17:10] is human nature because of the environments that we are steeped in and live in. It may be more of a conditioned cultural value than a human nature. And I think too, like when we were sending messages back and forth, you had said something about how this is like human nature since the beginning of time. And I think one thing I was thinking about when I read that was, I don't know if it's specifically the beginning of time, but really the beginning of civilization. Like a lot of what I had, I've been reading like in historical texts is [17:39] where... [17:41] organized warfare started in history was in this neolithic [17:45] period where people stopped being nomadic and started settling down and like working the land. Agriculture is born. States are born. And it was from that point that these ideas started to emerge around owning land.

[17:57] land and the people within it and then expanding outward infinitely was then where [18:03] conflict became imminent always and having to then organize battles and warfare to then protect your land and expand your land. And I just wonder how much of that is actually human nature versus how [18:14] Our cultures are formed around ideas of owning those types of things or scaling them infinitely because then you inevitably run into [18:23] these points of friction where something else is there or someone else is there. [18:26] and then you have these collision points. - I wanna push on that a little bit. I don't really, I don't know much about ancient history at all in my mind's eye. I am picturing cavemen, Neolithic times, and that feels like probably the most violent era of human life. [18:44] ever. And so I get sort of [18:46] your point, which is that perhaps it was certainly more organized when we all started to own land and start to take ownership of things and people, to your point. But that I don't know that I buy that [18:58] things were altogether peaceful before then I feel as though perhaps they were [19:02] in the lack of organization even more violent [19:05] and chaotic. Bringing it back to today, part of why I'm interested in this area is I feel the algorithm is a really easy scapegoat to say, [19:16] It's Mark Zuckerberg's fault that we're all so fucked up and we're all addicted to our phones and we're all addicted to scrolling. And I think that it's very true. [19:24] in many ways, but I also, it just feels reductive sometimes when we're just talking about the algorithm all the time. And I think it, that's like, we kind of need to look inside of ourselves and we're the ones that are training and feeding and doing a lot of work around to make that happen.

[19:40] I think that that's kind of like what I wanted to push on. And I think that like, there's also this idea that things were better in the old days. And I just don't buy that at all. And it comes up for me around this stuff. [19:51] Yeah, yeah, no, I'm tracking. I agree. To be clear, this is not, let's go back to Neanderthal Day's manifesto. Not at all. [20:01] I, cause I agree with you. I think there's a lot of things to touch on in that. I think we often use the algorithm as a scapegoat, which it plays a role for sure. [20:10] especially around the acceleration and frequency that we're met with these things. But I don't think it's that [20:16] solely. Like you can look at Marshall McLuhan is talking in the 70s or whenever about the global village, right? And that was pre-social media algorithms. That's more about... [20:27] you know, kind of earlier days in television, and he's talking about a war and violence as a result of [20:34] this global village being created by [20:37] how electric media continues to expand outward and like the birth of a real time news through CNN and how that [20:44] creates wars, perpetuates wars, and keeps us locked in these cycles. I think now with [20:49] social media and the algorithm [20:51] it's just like another step or evolution in that thing because now it's even more participatory where we're not just consuming it we're like active [20:59] craters of [21:01] conflict and how we center ourselves in those things for [21:04] all the incentives that are there for it to like gain our own following and engagement and cloud and whatever so that's yeah that's one thing i definitely agree it's not the algorithm alone these are more like broader media

[21:17] topics like the role that media plays and what our relationship is with it. With this idea of this global village and why so much kind of conflict and war comes around it. The idealist in me thinks that [21:31] as globalization continues and we're more hyper-connected, right? The idealist in me thinks that that is [21:37] such a beautiful opportunity to [21:39] learn more and empathize more and like see outside of ourselves more. That is definitely happening more for sure, but also at the same time, [21:48] we're seeing a reversal happen where [21:50] You know, now it's like dark forest theory feels like it's trending and everyone's kind of moving back into these private. What's that? The idea of the dark forest came out of the three body problem series. [22:01] We'll go sci-fi and then how it relates to this. It came from the Three Body Problem series, which is that aliens are out there. You don't know that they're there. You can't see them. But when you make your presence known in space, you are now putting your planet together. [22:18] and the humanity or life force on it at risk of some [22:23] more predatory [22:25] alien force that's out there that will then come and destroy you. Yancey Strickler had written something a couple years ago about [22:32] how we're seeing similar patterns happen on social media where [22:37] when you make yourself known [22:39] through the internet, you are now at risk, immediate risk of attack. [22:44] And I think that feels more and more [22:47] prevalent now.

[22:48] where... [22:49] as soon as I [22:50] tweet something or post something, it's going to find its people that like enjoy it. And it's also if it goes [22:56] past a certain point of virality, will find people will be like, "This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen." And like everything [23:02] in between, right? And so one thing that we're seeing is like this, this concept is starting to pick up speed. You see a lot of people kind of retreating back into their dark corners, the dark forest of the internet into their private spaces where they're not at risk. Similarly, geopolitics, similar things are happening, this kind of retreat away from globalization to some degree into like these nationalistic states, we're closing the borders, we're focusing on ourselves. You're seeing that across a lot of different countries. And I don't [23:32] where I was talking about this with Ruby Tullow last weekend. He was saying, it almost feels like we're hitting peak globalization to some degree, and there's kind of this like reversal back. [23:41] And from my standpoint, it almost feels like we're hitting [23:44] post scale, or at least we're seeing the limits of what like infinite scale looks like and how you start to run into these [23:51] points of friction and start to fall [23:53] backwards. So the idealist in me thinks that it should be an amazing opportunity, but [23:59] I think when we're not equipped with certain [24:02] tools of how you engage with [24:04] the other or environments of uncertainty [24:07] then we default to a place of [24:09] kind of fear and cowering back to our little corners. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about, you talk about wrestling, going back a little bit to historic examples of sort of war and conflict that had mass appeal and a viral sensation even really before the internet was happening.

[24:26] a thing in a mainstream way. Talk a little bit about that and I think the thing that you spoke to most eloquently around it was [24:33] how that was manufactured. This is a manufactured conflict. And I'm deeply cynical about any sort of cultural monocultural moment being manufactured and great PR and all that. So give us your two cents on all that. [24:46] Yeah, well, first of all, credit where credit is due. You know, my friend Elijah has been saying for a long time now that [24:54] the music industry can learn a lot from pro wrestling. [24:57] And I agree. [24:59] And essentially what that means, Elijah's frequently pointing to, is that [25:03] artists should consider how they build stories and characters around themselves, some true, some fake, and how they can create these points of tension or conflict or rivalries or whatever that generates attention and that attention begets more streams or ticket sales, whatever. [25:20] And so [25:21] That is essentially the concept of kayfabe, which is central to pro wrestling, which is like, it's all about. [25:28] generating heat. [25:29] Doesn't matter if that heat [25:31] is generated in a way that is like real conflict or simulated conflict it doesn't matter if that heat is because we love this wrestler or we think they are like the evil character as long as heat is generated like that's all that matters that really reflects our current attention economy it's attention by by any means necessary and i think wrestling works the same way whether it's on purpose or not [25:56] we're seeing a lot of the examples that we're talking about is like music is operating

[26:00] in similar ways because of the media environments that we're in. And so when you look at Drake and Kendrick, not like us, [26:06] is breaking a crazy amount of streaming and charting records [26:10] right now since May, you know, it's November now. [26:13] And it's a war anthem, basically, and I don't think that's an accident. Jay-Z and Solange [26:19] punching it out in the elevator example, but [26:22] Shortly after that happened, um, [26:24] Solange and Beyonce's father, Matthew Knowles, to this [26:28] radio interview that I love. [26:30] where he went on and was basically like, it was all a Jedi mind trick. Like, he keeps saying that over and over again. [26:36] I don't know if it was actually staged or if he even knows, but I think his point was, if you look at what happened to the metrics after that, [26:44] blowout, which for both Jay-Z and Solange, that was like the biggest Google search moment for them of all time. The on the run ticket sales went up. That was happening within 30 days of that incident. And [26:56] solange's albums spiked so whether it's simulate or not like the effect is the same i think for me i'm post truth on stuff so much because of i'm so online and i'm like i don't know maybe just smooth brain around it but when it comes to artists [27:12] not when it comes to the more serious stuff, but certainly when it comes to like artists and musicians, stuff like that, whether it's manufactured or not, I kind of don't care. I'm like, is the story good? [27:22] And if it's a good story, then I'm like, okay, great. I'm in. I think that relates to kind of the am I the asshole thing with Reddit, where you brought that up. And I'm like, in my head, I'm like, that's actually kind of a good idea. I'm like, that's pretty genius. Like, I think it's shitty that they're just doing it to like profit off of whatever those people's stories, and they're getting the creator fees and the original posters aren't that's the shitty part

[27:52] and bringing it over to TikTok or whatever to tell that story. [27:56] If it's a good story and they tell it in a good way, then I'm in. I'm going to watch it because I'm like, everything's fake and everything's real. I don't know. It's like all sort of the same at this point for me. [28:07] I don't care when it comes to [28:09] like Drake and Kendrick, whatever, as long as like everyone's has some media literacy around who's profiting. And that was actually something that I learned really in my heart of hearts from our last podcast was like, [28:18] Nick says, always ask who is profiting from whatever it is that you're looking at. And so I've really taken that to heart. I think where it gets obviously really a lot more problematic is when that post-truth stuff starts to bleed into inevitably other more serious things that have repercussions on people's lives. That's a slippery slope that they can't help but exist. Yeah. A lot of people probably share the same sentiment that the real or fake question maybe doesn't matter quite as much if it is in fact true. [28:45] entertaining and a story well told. I think how we respond to [28:50] manufactured or simulated conflict, it depends on a bunch of different factors to me. We're already touching on so many different examples across pop culture like music beef, sports rivalries, professional wrestling. So much of that is simulated conflict. It's entertaining. [29:05] Who cares, right? Like it's, it's great. It's doing the thing that it's meant to do. Is it real or fake question to me? Or now I guess its current iteration is chat. Is this real? Those are the wrong questions. We should graduate beyond that at this point and ask deeper questions sometimes in many times. [29:22] we will never actually know. Like there's no way to know. Maybe in some cases it makes sense to like dig deeper and do the research around more serious topics, but at least for entertainment purposes, it almost doesn't matter sometimes, regardless of whether or not something is real or fake.

[29:37] I find myself using [29:39] a different mental framework around assessing these things more so around awareness consent intent [29:46] and impact? What is the level of awareness of the audience? Like, are they in on the joke? [29:51] Right? Is the audience consenting to that fake situation of the joke or whatever? What is the intent of the creator? And then what is the ultimate impact of what the creator has done? [30:02] And I think to me that starts to give a more nuanced way of assessing. It doesn't matter if it's real or fake, depending on how those levers are pulled. For example, I find myself frequently using magic shows as an analogy where the whole point [30:16] of a [30:17] going to these is like the magician will trick you. Like that is the point, right? It is not real. You are going to be tricked. And yet, people still sign up and pay money to have that done to them, right? We're going to show you a thing, we're going to make you do something, we're going to make you believe something, and then something completely different. [30:33] happens or is the result and that works because [30:37] the audience is like aware they're like in on the bit [30:40] they're consenting, they know what they've signed up for, [30:43] They know they're going to be tricked and the ultimate [30:46] intent and impact of like the magician or illusionist or performer is entertainment. [30:52] That's all good. That feels fine. When you start pulling those levers differently, to me, that's when things start to break down and feel very different. [30:59] where... [31:01] I didn't know I was being tricked. I didn't consent to this. They were doing that to push me towards some other nefarious purpose. Right. Like that's when it starts to feel more like this.

[31:12] charlatan con [31:14] kind of thing [31:15] to go a step further, where it becomes even more problematic, you started touch on is like when these simulated conflicts [31:22] in the digital realm. [31:24] go over this threshold and start to spill over into like real conflict in physical realm and [31:30] the lines blur. So, you know, Drake Kendrick [31:33] It's entertaining. It's fun. I thought it was fucking awesome. [31:37] but also like Drake's security guard got shot. And then like you look at the, [31:42] World Series last week and it's like [31:45] great entertainment of this like Dodgers and Yankees locked in conflict. [31:49] And then it's like, Dodgers fans are setting buses on fire. There's this PT Barnum, I think, quote. It's like, "Nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. Crowds just get bigger crowds, but get even bigger crowds." And I think you said the words like media literacy before. [32:04] that is such a crucial ingredient. But I think that is the missing ingredient often in all of this that then allows for [32:11] these crowds to form and they get bigger and bigger and they spill out of online world into physical world and [32:15] these conflicts are no longer so simulated anymore. [32:19] Mm-hmm. [32:19] your piece ends on a positive note and it's nice to see and I want to do the same here and [32:27] first sort of [32:28] ask you if you think that joy [32:33] and joy online can be as much of a, [32:37] Lighthouse. [32:39] to activity on the algorithm as conflict.

[32:42] if that's a world that you can see, and if so, how do we cultivate that? And I think that is possible. I mean, I look at the New York City Marathon just happened. [32:51] It's such a display of inspiration and joy and emotion and [32:57] love [32:59] across... [33:00] many different types of people and places and folks and, um, [33:05] How it shows up online is like so beautiful and so fun to watch. And that feels like a really beautiful example of something that has like so much energy online around it and is for the most part just amazing. [33:18] about [33:19] something that's joyful. Yeah, I'm curious what you think and how we cultivate that if you think it's possible. [33:25] I'll answer the question, but with the marathon, I was actually thinking about this a lot yesterday, too, because I met up with some family friends who were running and their parents were there to support them. And I was having a similar kind of reflection of like, hmm. [33:38] How does this match to what I've just [33:41] put into the world. I think it checks a lot of the boxes. It's a very emotionally charged moment. [33:46] It's kind of getting a little bit to the identity level of like family and friends and runner or whatever. Right. Representing a city like there's that aspect to it. [33:56] It's a ritual. It is, you know, media broadcasted. I think the one thing that's missing that makes that keeps it in a positive realm is it's not like, [34:04] mythologizing this [34:06] good versus evil thing. Like to me, that feels like [34:09] a big component where you're able to

[34:13] participate [34:14] in, I'm not going to call it conflict, but like there is a competitive edge, right? [34:19] But I think a lot of it is also intrinsic. Like most people that I know who've run marathons are not like [34:25] "I'm gonna beat everybody's ass." They're like, "I wanna just finish for myself." - Yeah. - You know? I think there's like a very big distinction of like, we're not drawing these weird hard lines between this side or that side. It's more intrinsically motivated than [34:40] extrinsically, that feels like a big helmet. But I think to [34:45] answer your [34:46] First question. [34:47] I have my own beef... [34:48] with the monocultural [34:50] discourse, I feel like [34:53] Monoculture is one of these words that [34:56] is very specific to like people in our industry. [34:59] very like academic elite marketing trend person kind of vibe when we look outside of [35:05] our bubble... [35:06] I don't know that people are [35:08] thinking the same way [35:09] to the point where when I was doing research and I was like posting questions about monoculture, like I was having friends and family that don't work in this space and they're like, [35:18] Why are you talking about agriculture? Right? Like, I think that's very telling that we are often just like kind of locked in our own world. So [35:27] A, this is me filing a complaint with HR against how we operate sometimes with words. But I say this because I... [35:36] Back to where we started, I frequently hear this narrative that like we need these monocultural events to connect through shared experiences and I don't

[35:44] always agree with that. I think we are entirely capable of having [35:49] joyful moments with groups of people, these shared connections and experiences that don't have to be this like [35:56] world dominating monocultural thing. [35:59] like to reach that status necessarily. And similarly, I also think that [36:04] There's a way of facilitating these [36:07] simulated conflicts and really games [36:09] that can reach a monocultural level by lots of different kind of tribes coming together in a way that [36:15] stays contained within joy and entertainment and doesn't have to spill into some weird other thing. I'm starting to think I'm trying to think of who the voice club is. [36:24] podcast could have beef with [36:27] to start to create a, create a rivalry, create some conflict, get some attention. I'm just, I'm just waiting for someone to like, I mean, I even say it in the, [36:38] essay but I'm just I'm just waiting for someone to be like I read this thing and now I just want to start fights with everybody on the internet that's me this is the video okay Nick thank you so much for coming always a pleasure you're such a smart thoughtful guy and we we love that and just appreciate you being generous with [36:55] with your thoughts with us. [36:57] Yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. [36:59] you [37:00] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly.

[37:30] B at kraken.com backslash boys club not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive inc no third party transfers available oh should we do draft tweets quick oh sure i have one that i really might tweet tomorrow oh great let's hear it [37:48] Like, is it election themed? Uh-huh. [37:50] Okay, well, this came out. This is old. [37:54] Okay, I'm... [37:55] I'm curious if you're familiar with this meme format. - Okay. - But if not, it won't land, but if so, [38:00] whatever maybe first date idea go vote together okay or something like that first date idea head to the polls okay i'm not really familiar with it is it supposed to be a bad idea [38:10] The first date idea is like, come over and watch me cry. First date idea, like, um, inappropriate things, inappropriate things, like things that you'd never do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Can I just, just some notes? [38:21] Tell me. It reads very earnest. Oh, ew. You know what I mean? It's like, I know. Like earnest around like politics? [38:29] Yeah, a little bit. It's a little Katy Perry. Yeah, get out the boat. [38:36] That's so not me. I know. I know. I'm just telling you that's how it reads. Okay, great. Well, it's staying in the drafts in that case. [38:42] What was the second one? You had two versions of it. Oh, Head to the Polls. [38:45] Which sounds even more... Yeah, let's get out the vote. Let's get out the vote. [38:49] Sorry. No problem. I just, you know, better to know. This is why you workshop it. Totally. This is why you workshop it. Okay. I have a true draft. [38:57] All I have is in quotes, [39:00] It's just these three words, tension, rod, garland.

[39:03] in quotes. Okay. I'm going to do something with it. [39:06] I don't know yet how it's going to come to life. Have you seen any of the tension rod Garland? No, I haven't. My algorithm on Instagram is very poorly trained. [39:14] Or maybe it's well-trained, but I don't like... [39:16] I'm not a frequent scroller there. I like go and I watch your stories. I go and watch Miranda's story. Like I'm like there for specific. I watch the boys club stuff and my friends, my very, very close friends. And then I'm out. But I guess I have scrolled on some like home improvements, like house interior design stuff. But not like my TikTok is very well tuned to interior design. And I'm like getting very useful. I'm actually in the grip of these two men who live in LA. These two gay guys live in LA. I know exactly. I know both of them. [39:46] They are incredible talents. They are talents. They deserve to be famous. They really do. And they're, they're not really right now. I'll, I'll drop them in the show notes. They're incredible. They have incredible taste and they're like, they do a lot of thrifting. It's accessible. It's accessible. [40:02] It's very accessible. I can't stop watching. Like I'm like obsessed with them. So that's very well tuned and they're very tasteful. My Instagram algorithm around home interior design stuff is like, it's like people putting up the wall piping. Okay. The molding around. Molding. It's like molding DIY stuff. It's a lot of, I transformed my small space bathroom. Okay. And like, they'll do like. Here's all the things I bought from Amazon. That kind of thing. Here are all the things I bought from Amazon. Exactly. Exactly. Not good. Okay. Here's how I did my floor to ceiling curtains. [40:32] much higher level we're at. Anyway, all that to say, I've been getting recently in the past week, I think the algorithm has shifted over to holiday interior design decor, which is not something I would ever watch. But just to say...

[40:44] how poorly the algorithm was tuned to me. And all the women are doing this thing called a tension rod garland. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Do you know what it is? Have you seen it? I do know what it is. I do know what it is. So you get a big door frame and you put a shower curtain. [41:00] across it that's the tension rod and then you swirl around like fake garlands [41:06] and you create like a holiday. Something that's so funny about that [41:11] is you would never do that in a million years one million you've done to your head you wouldn't do it you just say shoot me like it wouldn't happen so it's so funny oh my gosh so part of what the tweet is there's something about those three words together tension rod garland that are so weird that i'm just like i feel like i need to do something with them but i haven't found out it feels like it needs to be in a list of other things yeah it does it's very funny but i'm [41:37] It took two minutes to get there. [41:39] That's why it's in the draft. That's why it's in the draft. Okay, so the drafts are staying in the drafts this week. This week. [41:46] *laughs* [41:47] *music*