Ep: 234 - Boys Club Live: Show Me Your Stack Launch, AI Psychosis Summit, Elon vs. Altman Trial, Rich Auntie, Shake Social App, Co-hosts Quasimatt and Julia Rosenberg, special guest Tiago Sada (Tools For Humanity, World)

[00:29] Here's this week's show. [00:31] you [00:33] Quasi-quasi-matte. [00:36] Yes. Famous on the internet. All of the above. I always say famous on the internet because to me, that's who you are. You've really been into the neighborhood of nomad. [00:43] Oh, yeah. Recently. Yeah, I've been loving Flatiron and Nomad, which I like to refer to as Flatiron slash Nomad. Yes. And I've been going there a lot. I've been noticing a lot of interesting activity around Madison Square Park. I've been eating at a Jewish deli called S&P as well. Okay. And just exploring what it has to offer, you know, just taking a stroll down Broadway and stuff like that. And I recommend it to anyone. New York is always consistently revealing itself in new ways and fashions. Literally. I've been loving the updates from you. [01:13] - It's a slatter and bath house. [01:16] I have never actually been there. I know. I don't see you as a bathhouse person. Yeah. This is like a cultural reference point though. I think it could be good for you. True. Yeah. [01:25] yeah and like that's i feel like that's a lot of people's intro to flat iron maybe or perhaps like the flat iron building as well i think probably that no i know i feel like tech people like that really is they have this fixation like i feel like i know people who are at the intersection of like tech and raving and for some reason they're like also obsessed with going to the bath house like i don't know this is um i have i'm so consistently invited to [01:47] Hangouts. [01:49] professional hangouts at bathhouses. - Oh, thank you. Yeah. - And it's... - I'm allergic to those. - I know that you are. - I'm morally opposed to those. I'm like 50/50. It really depends on who, whomst is.

[02:01] homestead inviting right could you like maybe describe the type of person that you really wouldn't want to be invited by i think that could be interesting um i just feel like um it's there's like no i'm not gonna say it because all the people who i've you get a party full from quasi no i often go i i like a bathhouse moment um but it definitely like i'm checking the [02:28] - RSVPs before attending to that type of thing. - Oh, totally. Okay, then Julia Rosenberg is here, also known as Jules. - Jules. - Like Cher, a one-word name. - It really doesn't flow the same. It's Julia Rosenberg. [02:41] or jewels. [02:42] Yeah, Jules Rosenberg, you said the other day, and I said, don't do that. I don't know. In my head, I didn't say chocolate. Thank you so much for raising the service today. Oh, but she has been a friend of the pod, friend of the boys, a boy at this point, and is launching... [02:58] Show me your stack. And we're going to talk about that today. A Boys Club Network show brought to you by Vercel. And we're going to get into like what that is. And you can watch today. And there's a little bit of a watch party for it as well. So stay tuned. [03:11] because it's going to happen at the end of the episode. [03:14] if all goes well technically. - Yeah. No, technically, we're feeling very confident about it. Yeah, totally. Always. And also, it's just gonna be fun to hang no matter what. Okay. So, I would like to thank [03:26] the lovely partners that allowed this show to exist in the world. Octant, Polygon, and Vercel all are wonderful companies that are partners here with Boys Club. I'm going to talk about Octant. And what I love about having both of you here today is that you guys do the other.

[03:45] ad reads yeah that's why we're here ultimately ultimately that's what's going on um and i but the weight of the world is being alleviated off it really is one one like uh ad read at a time but i do love octon and i'm excited to tell the world about them today um our supporting sponsor octon is well known in ethereum circles for its tireless contributions to the ethereum ecosystem through research and millions of dollars in grants and publics [04:11] public good funding. In 2026, they are in their product era. Octant previously launched DeFi Vaults, which enables orgs and communities to build sustainable funding systems through their yield generating products. They're also opened up funding participation to the wider Ethereum community. [04:30] Help decide which impactful projects in Ethereum should get funded through using your ETH to help allocate a big pool of matching funds by participating in their EPOC-12 projects. [04:41] uh next month yield funding impactful projects is a good sustainable model for our industry [04:47] Be sure to check out at Octon app to help. [04:50] to keep up with all of the latest funding announcements. And don't forget to lock ETH to help allocate over 300 ETH to projects such as Protocol Guild, Tor Project, and Revoke to name a few. So Octant app is where you can follow them. Lots of great stuff coming through there. We've talked a lot about them and they're doing some really cool stuff. And the team is really awesome. So there is a... [05:13] link in the chat and you can learn more there. Okay. So, um, what are we going to do next here? I think that what we should do next, I really wanted to talk about the Elon and Sam Altman trial that started on Tuesday. A lot of juicy stuff happening there. Um, but I can just say, I'm disappointed that you're not.

[05:33] out there live reporting as you were with us honestly huge miss huge mess i do think it's a close it's not a it's not a criminal trial okay no one's going to jail yeah immediately jail unfortunately that's not happening to either of them that would be really well then who what are why are we talking about it if no one's going to be lower at this point um so you're saying the only way to get in the room is to have [05:53] made an offense. [05:55] Um, no, I think it's a civil trial. I do think, uh, press is in the house, in the room, certain press, approved press, but it's not like the one here at the Southern district of New York for SPF was open. So you could, anybody could go, you could have gone and hung out with me there if you wanted. Um, but I do think maybe a press pass could have been acquired for the Sam Altman and, uh, [06:20] Elon Musk won. And man, would I have thrived. Thrived. Daily updates. Oh my gosh. I would have done little sketches. Little sketches too. She's an artist. Anyway, I don't really have enough time to talk about it, unfortunately. Maybe later in the app. We are going to talk about Show Me Your Stack because... [06:37] that's a little bit of a big topic today. So Jules, [06:43] Let me tell, let me tell what my experience of showing your sack was. So Jules and I are very good friends and we both work in tech, uh, [06:55] Unfortunately. - - Um, and... Anyway, you called me a few months ago, and you were like, "I've really been thinking about this show concept, where I interview cool people about their technical stack." I remember where I was. I was outside my dry cleaner, and it was kind of raining, but I really wanted to talk to you anyway, so I stayed out there, and I was just like, "I really need to go in." But I can't be on the phone.

[07:15] In a public place. Wildly inappropriate. Yeah. In the dry cleaner. Yeah, absolutely not. That's so rude. That's a sacred space. Exactly. So I was just like waiting it out. Anyway, you told me about the show concept and you were talking about it just like, [07:26] in idea and like sort of like putting some of the pieces together. And I was like, well, what if you do it with Boys Club? And you were like, I didn't even know that was an option. And I was like, now it is. Now it is. [07:37] And that was the origin story. But tell us about what's going on with Show Me Your Stack. I'm so excited. [07:42] um it's been the opportunity of a lifetime to work with the boys hard hands [07:48] Um, [07:51] But basically the show concept started where I was, I recently moved to San Francisco. [07:56] become even more tech by the day. I did go on my first cycling ride recently. So we're losing the plot officially. Wow. We got a wow. But you're gaining a new one. So it's aligning, I would say. Exactly. So I've just decided to triple down on this persona. Perfect. [08:12] And [08:13] fortunately we are tech girls um but i would hang out with my tech friends uh in the fall and i'm like very used to hanging out with the developers like very technical personas like i came from the world of crypto i'm not technical by trade but i very much understand you can hang yeah for sure like i founded a startup and we eventually pivoted into developer tooling so like [08:40] I feel that I can talk about the command line interface. Can I get [08:44] - In the CLI? - In the CLI? I don't know, TBD.

[08:47] I was hanging out with some tech friends, my new tech friends in SF. And every time I would go and have coffee with them, they would open their computers up and start like showing me things that they were working on. [08:57] And I would just like peer over their shoulder and... [08:59] Every single time my reaction was, [09:01] what the fuck are you doing on your computer? Yeah. Like genuinely, if you passed me your computer, I don't know if I could use that. Hieroglyphics. Yeah. Like these... [09:11] like keyboard shortcuts into like these weird browser apps into [09:16] CLI agent commands, like all this crazy shit was happening. And I was like, whoa, [09:22] Firstly, I'm officially behind the times. Like, this is a dark... [09:27] reflection moment for myself you felt like what you were up to is like carving into caves first correct okay correct i'm in a word doc just typing that out yeah i feel like i'm using like out of the box stuff too yeah i literally do use pages like one time no one time i was like oh i can't like i don't have word and i don't really want to like go get it so i'm just going to use pages like i don't really want to go get it i'm probably gonna like generate a pdf anyway so it doesn't [09:57] famous meme of like the bell curve meme where in the middle midwit is basically like this person that has all these crazy productivity apps that connect like you're... [10:08] note taking app connects to your calendar, connects to your reading app, which takes notes on your Kindle and then puts that into... -Notes on your Kindle? Like, I don't know. Crazy shit happening. And then on the other end of the bell curve are Apple Notes and Apple Notes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, that like the dumbest and the smartest people are doing like the simplest things. Yes. Right. And they're sort of like this midwit category that is making it more complicated for themselves than they need to. Uh huh. So I think that's where it's sort of interesting is like,

[10:36] in the age that we're in right now with this surplus of [10:40] AI and AI being like forced [10:43] fed to us on a daily basis. [10:45] And everyone's doing these like crazy automations on their stack. It's like, what are people actually implementing in their stack that is making a net difference that is not creating more work for them in that? And like, yeah, which is like a delicate balance. Very delicate balance. Okay. So that was the concept. That was the concept. And Shiv was actually one of the people that I had this idea with who is our first episode. Shiv is one of my good friends from the, from the internet. Yeah. [11:11] and he is just one of the most talented builders i know he's an amazing design engineer and is constantly spinning up [11:17] a bunch of different side projects. Like he truly has an idea and like, [11:22] 24 hours later, he has a working prototype. [11:26] And... [11:27] Yeah, he was one of the people I sat down and coffee with where he started showing various things on his computer. And I was like, oh, we got to... [11:34] we got to get a production team in here. And so that was kind of the birth of the concept. And then obviously, [11:42] Tasha's outside the dry cleaner talking with me. And I think it was just like a really energizing collab and moment where so much of Boys Club is about like, how can we break down tech into more accessible platforms? [11:54] means and formats. Um, [11:57] And I think that's like a lot of what the show represents, is how can we make the stack [12:02] which is this very scary like Devi term and tool.

[12:06] much more approachable, accessible, and something that we're all kind of like sharing in public. Yeah. [12:13] I love it. [12:14] Quasi can move off of pages. No, like literally when I was at, so I got a preview and I was like, oh, I need to adopt some of these things that I'm seeing here. Like I think that's what I'm most excited for the show is like getting some inspo because I need it because I have this aversion, like I call it tooling psychosis where people just get obsessed with tooling. But now I'm going to start saying stack psychosis, which is when you get too obsessed with your stack and you forget what you're using it for. Yes, totally. [12:44] things like use pages or have like very little exposure. Like I'm not using keyboard shortcuts, which is like really crazy. Like, yeah, so I'm gonna get some inspo. I'm gonna boss up by watching it. Yeah, I think that's perfect, though. Like, I think that's the balance that we want is [12:59] Like, yes, yes. [13:00] pages is still welcome. Like we welcome and encourage in you. That's also the Barry Boys Club. Barry Boys Club. All come on in. Put the website on Google Docs. Let's make it simple. Exactly. But also I think that there are some really cool things people are doing throughout the season. There was every single episode I was like, ooh, I got to tap in on that. Like there's really cool things that people are working on. [13:21] And [13:23] that actually feel like things I would genuinely want to implement into my day-to-day. So really quick, there are six episodes. They span from like, [13:32] creative technologists to founders to venture capitalists a lot of variety in terms of who you talk to and what stack they use um all super fun we brought the concept to Vercel and they were like we're in and we love them for that and so many other reasons and they're an incredible and very um apt partner for it because so many people are using the tools that um

[13:54] it was so naturally in many of these people's stacks. Such a perfect partner. They've been so amazing to work with. Very cool to work with. And they're like the original stock creator. Totally. It's like, how can you compress [14:05] the most complicated, [14:06] Like. [14:07] over the top. [14:08] components of your stack into really easy, simple tools. Yeah. [14:11] so happy we were working with them. And first episode is gonna uh preview today at the end of the stream and it will be on YouTube. Um we are as as the close boys know we have been slowly but surely [14:26] putting time into YouTube. We have been... [14:29] um hesitant to do it over the course of the past four years no problem no problem it's a very male coded space yeah and so anytime i put up a video on youtube i was like this is i'm actually this is not for me yeah and then kate was like get over it and i was like okay so now we've gotten over it and this is our first like youtube native show uh which is exciting and so go to our youtube which is [14:54] subscribe, [14:56] Hit the likes. [14:57] watch previous episodes of whatever is on there, but... [15:01] Play all of the Show Me Your Stack stuff, which we... New episodes every two weeks, over the next couple weeks, six episodes total. You'll see a lot of jewels. You'll see a lot of other fun stuff. Anything else to add? Kate, am I missing anything? Hit the bell. I really wanted to say that. Yeah. Hit the bell. So what you're going to do is you're going to click subscribe, but then you're not done. You're going to hit the bell so you get notified when new videos come out or maybe some other stuff. Honestly, I don't really even know what hitting the bell does, but I know it's going to be good.

[15:29] Oh yeah, that's why. Okay, I was right. I thought maybe there were other notifications involved, but no, there's no fluff. There's no spam. Just when the high quality Boys Club World content gets released. [15:40] You'll be the first to know. You'll be the first to know. Also give us some feedback too. [15:45] Um, maybe here's some alpha too, is that season two might already be, uh, [15:49] - In the works. - In the works. Cooking. Some exciting guests already lined up. [15:54] redacted. But yeah, give us feedback if there's other things in the stack that you want to see that you feel like we're not tapping in on enough. One funny thing about yesterday was we were going live with... [16:08] some of the trailer content and [16:12] Let me just say, people don't understand what it takes to do a show like this. Oh, my God. People are... [16:18] delusional about what it takes i was delusional i know and all of us essentially were on a plane so all of us are dealing with the worst possible wi-fi you can imagine jules is texting me and saying none of the file i can't see anything i'm getting our notifications but i'm not seeing anything and we were like getting exciting dms once the trailer was live about people who are interested in season two and anyway it was just really funny [16:48] because it was a last minute trip. And let me tell you, I had some feelings about it. I was like, this is a terrible, but the woman next to me was like, what is this girl doing? She's manic. She's got a iPad. She's got a computer. She's got her phone. She's crying, laughing and typing all at the same time. But anyway, it's up. It's exciting. Go ring the bell. Okay. I just want to say based on your plain behavior, I want to just do a callback to your aversion to the guy in the coffee

[17:18] of hypocrisy going on. We're going to circle back on that. A full of... [17:24] I'm an enigma. Okay. That's a really good way to put it. Wait, can I have one more question about the filming of the show? Okay, so I want a trend report. [17:33] on like, [17:34] who has the most reasonable stack for their purposes you know you're talking to developers and vcs and like all these different types of people is there anyone that [17:41] a class of people that stood out as really like slaying the [17:45] infra or slaying the stock that's a really good question that is a really good question [17:49] Um... [17:52] I actually think, so we interviewed Guillermo Rauch, who is the founder and CEO of Vercel. [17:57] He is a longtime developer himself. [18:00] And I was very impressed how simple his stack was. Like he really only interacts with like three applications at once. It's Chrome, it's Slack. [18:09] and his terminal. And he uses just like a pretty basic IDE, nothing crazy. And- What's an IDE for? Oh, sorry. Integrated Development Environment. So that's basically- Like terminal? Terminal. Okay. Yeah. [18:22] Um, [18:24] And he was accessing like most things through the CLI. He had some like fun agents and automations built. [18:31] But it was all pretty simple. And I think like, [18:34] What I also really love about the show is it's not just, okay, what is your digital tech stack? But it [18:39] ends up sort of mimicking what people's cognitive [18:42] Like, [18:44] map is. Like how do they work? What is their cognitive process? [18:48] And Guillermo was just like very simple. Like he was like, I think of what I need to do in the day. And then I go and do those things. Well, you know what they say. If you need something to get done, give it to. Usually it's give it to a busy woman. But we'll let him in on this. We will let you a busy person. And I feel like maybe the tech stack is the same thing. If you're a person, you don't got a lot of time to be overengineering the process. Totally. Yeah. That's why you're in notes.

[19:13] Yeah, yeah, that's why. Wait, what is it? Notes? Pages. I use notes a lot too. I would say notes is my primary. Yeah. Totally. I do think some of the engineers go like a little too hard on the paint. That checks out. Yeah. It's like performative at a certain point. We need to transition now to Kwasi's. [19:34] Breaking news. Topic. Oh, this is breaking. This is a cultural moment that has emerged online. And it is a 32-year-old rich auntie with no job, no kids, and no responsibilities. I think we just got to roll the clip for the context and then we'll get into the discourse. Okay, let's do it. Kate's going to pull it up here. I'm a 32-year-old rich auntie with no kids, no job, no responsibilities, [20:04] I wake up to silence, skincare, and food I don't have to share. Y'all love to say, "Oh, I hear an auntie, but I don't see an auntie." Well, darling, the joke's on you. I'm not your emergency contact or community rideshare. I'm a rich auntie in mindset, not maternity. Auntie isn't about gender. It isn't age. It's a lifestyle. It's luxury with boundaries. A refusal to trade peace for proximity or strength to fit. I live by bougie economics 101, darling. I don't split the bills with struggle. I don't entertain low-effort love. And I don't negotiate with broke behavior emotionally or financially. [20:34] I wear a ring in public not because I'm taken, but because I'm expensive. It's called preventative bullshit blocking and trust. It saves time and it works. I take myself on solo dates because no one curates luxury for me better than me. If I want flowers, I buy them. If I want dinner with a view, I book it. I am the treat. I don't reply to what you're doing text. I respond to calendars, confirmations, and Apple Pay. If you don't elevate me, you don't get access to me. My circle is curated. My schedule is soft. My piece is non-refundable. I say no with grace and yes, only when it pays in peace, priorities, or price.

[21:04] This isn't a phase, darling. It's a blueprint. Untie is autonomy, power, and pleasure. All funded by high standards and soft boundaries. So when I say I'm a rich untie, I'm not talking about titles. I'm talking about freedom, softness, and being completely unavailable to nonsense. And no, I don't want your opinion. I want your Amex, your boundaries, and your intentions in writing. [21:23] - Well, thoughts? - Okay, I have-- I want to hear from you first. Yeah. Can you just give a little bit of context on what is happening [21:38] on the internet around this video specifically yeah yeah so people are really i actually saw this like months ago so it's it's a resurfaced situation but people on twitter like if you engage with this video one time you will start getting quotes tweets comments like everything like now my timeline's full of it which is really exciting and i'm living for it and i think for the most part people are being hypercritical and hateful of this person and being like okay i don't really understand like what they're going for or like they're a lot of people are saying oh they're not really saying anything like none of this means [22:07] anything and then people are getting really like taking their magnifying glass out and looking at like very specific things of the video like screenshotting [22:15] small clips and they have their criticism. So I have some a list of people's fixations here like, Oh, excellent. So there's this moment where they walk down a hallway of what is allegedly their own apartment complex. But look, they look like really lost. [22:27] Like, they're just kind of, like, glancing around. There's, like, this performed nonchalance that comes across as, like, yeah, just being lost, I guess. I actually saw a tweet that was that screenshot. And the quote tweet was, when I get out of the subway at the wrong station or something, like, where you're just like, oh, shit, I'm not in the right place. Like, I don't know where I am. Like, I thought I knew right. Yeah. The confidence that you have.

[22:49] and not being in the right place. Right. Yeah, we need to fabricate some been here before energy. And then the other thing that people are really obsessed with is a critique of how they're holding like the silverware and the way that they pick up the wine glass. So obviously, they're sort of leaning into this I'm bougie thing. And then people are saying like, Well, are you because you're holding your silverware wrong, which Okay, I want to start here because I feel [23:17] this is a piece of discourse that I may have a nonstandard opinion on which is okay [23:22] Bougie. Wealthy. [23:24] the point of money is that you don't have to follow the rules anymore like you're buying yourself freedom of culture or of the rich culture [23:33] Yeah, well, it's like, okay, if you're still on your grind, then sure, like, go ahead and follow the rules so that you can like solicit more interest and capital and appeal to the right person. But if you've really made it, made it, you're going to abandon the rules and you're going to grab your fork with your fist if you want to. And that's when you know you've really actually made it. Okay, I think to be at that level of made it, you need to literally be Elon Musk or like Jeff Vesos. [24:03] At some point you have to say, I made it. I'm going to express myself. That's the point of being alive. I'm not going to... [24:08] Keep. [24:09] like chasing money all the time. Yeah. And I think this person has made it in that way, at least whether that is rooted in delusion or, you know, actual monetary success. [24:19] I don't know, but I think people might be jealous. - Okay. - I'll say this. - What is like-- - For sure.

[24:23] current state of manners. Like, remember how there was like etiquette classes when we were growing up? Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever participate in this? [24:30] So I didn't. In any like formal way. Like I didn't really like take any elocution courses or anything of that nature and sort. I will say I think I like can sort of use silverware right now. [24:43] Nice. And I think I'm like, polite, like communicatively polite, but certainly like there's a certain type of environment where I'm going to go, well, guys, like, [24:52] I got to lean into the fact that I don't know what's going on. I don't know the rules. Yeah. Okay. I feel I was raised by a mother who was like, [25:00] really strict about that sort of stuff. She had opinions. She had very clear opinions and like when you're [25:07] eating something you are never, you're using your fork to, [25:11] put things on the... [25:13] Or your knife. You're pushing. You're never touching any food ever. No pig trough situation. No, no, no, no, no. And like fork on the... [25:24] What is it? Fork on the right? Whatever. All the rules, very much. Right. And I don't know, like I can... [25:32] I feel like [25:33] Fair to buck the rules. If you know that you're bucking the rules, if you're doing it without intention, I don't love it. It's not, it's not my circus, not my monkey. Like you can do whatever you want, everybody everywhere. But I'm just saying like me personally, what I respect is like, you know, the rules, but you're going to, [25:51] subvert the rules because you want to be

[25:54] different and cool and or free or yourself, whatever. But I feel like there needs to be a knowledge base. There needs to be some sort of knowledge base. Okay, I have a few thoughts on this whole situation. [26:05] The... [26:06] Rich auntie, [26:08] thing that is like the the nomenclature for what this is i guess yeah [26:13] It's like, [26:14] Does this person actually have nieces and nephews? [26:18] Well, I think they have detached [26:20] on see from its literal meaning and i would say probably basically every sentence okay okay it's it's like it kind of feels just like a new dink status symbol yes it's not actual like it's no connection to the actual word [26:35] "auntie." [26:36] Right. Like they saw what there's like one, you can imagine there's one figure that represents the persona and they just so happen to be. [26:43] an aunt and then you abandon that part and you take the rest of it okay i see i'm i'm tracking and then [26:49] What I took away from all of it is that like there are... [26:55] individuals in this person's life. [26:57] who are supporting their lifestyle, [27:00] Is that correct? I mean, I don't honestly like I don't know. It seems like that's the image that they're trying to portray. Yeah. [27:09] um so yeah like probably but i don't know like people love to lie on the internet of course oh i'm not saying that it's true i'm saying oh yeah yes okay and then the other thing that the the moment that was really impactful for me like a turning point i would say in the whole of it is when they say um i don't respond to what's up text i respond to calendar invites

[27:31] And there's a few other things. And I was just like, this is... [27:34] Crazy. Like if I said that to either of you, like, oh, I would accept it. If someone sent me a calendar, like didn't say hello. I literally do that to you all the time. No, but like, it seems like in a romantic way. [27:50] Yeah, setting. Yeah. Yeah. But but also like, I think it's [27:55] having such strict rules right like you because you're saying like oh you've done that before because you're open to whatever right like you just don't have all these like like you have to follow these 10 rules before you interact with me like of course in some context that's totally appropriate to have some sort of rules and restraint or whatever right but like to be like oh in order for me to communicate with you at all you have to follow my set of rules it's just kind of could it be further from me i feel like i think come my way instructions he was giving more these were [28:25] It's aspirational. It's aspirational. It's a mindset. Okay. To be emboldened enough to... [28:31] send me a calendar and I like to phone him rightly. Like that, [28:36] that demands a certain type of respect and [28:39] way in which I'm going to interact with you. Yeah, I think that's I think that's what he's after. Okay. Yeah. I agree. I think that you there are maybe five people on earth who can truly live that lifestyle because they have so much leverage that they can do whatever they want. It requires that. When you try to LARP that, [28:55] you just end up pushing everyone away. Because like when I think about, oh, what is this person or what is this like archetype aspiring to? It seems like they're aspiring to what? Eating dinner alone? Being really cold to everyone that wants to spend time with them. And

[29:11] Like, I don't know. Honestly, it's kind of giving, like, age-old women's dating advice. Yeah. There's some book, I can't remember what the book is, of, like, [29:20] like how to engage with men, how to for women. And it's like all, it's like this type of energy. Oh, I think Shoshana reads that in Lena Dunham's Girls, actually. That is, yeah, you're right. Actually, I'm doing a rewatch. I feel that I would love to see a full 30 minute episode. [29:38] If this person would like to reach out to Boys Club, the network has launched and we will take inquiries and pitches. That would be everything. Everything. I want to know... [29:48] who, what, when, where, why. You know what I mean? - Yeah. Yeah. So... - Like, how did we get here? How did we get here and where are we going? - Yeah. - It's Auntie Monologue's reality TV show. Oh my gosh, sign me up. Or like, in the style of Sex and the City. You know? Like, that would be really, really quite great. - Yeah. - Okay. We're really gonna change. We're really shifting gears in like a tremendous left, right kind of way. - Let's go there. Okay. - Before we do, [30:10] Do you want to tell me about Polygon? [30:12] Oh, absolutely. Let me just scroll down to the script. [30:18] Our next sponsor is Polygon. [30:21] - [30:22] Every company moving money globally hits the same walls. Legacy rails are slow, expensive, and built for a pre-internet world. Stablecoin rails are fast, but they're fragmented across vendors that don't talk to each other. The plumbing to deliver on the promise of stablecoins hasn't existed. Polygon's open money stack is fixing that. One unified stack that puts global money movement onto proven rails that move at the speed of the internet.

[30:44] And why Polygon? [30:46] because they've been moving money, which is why their new brand campaign reminds audiences that it's not their first trillion. Check out the tweet we just dropped into the chat and watch their brand new video. [30:57] We love Polygon. [31:00] Excellent. Also shout out to the new meta. [31:02] deal with Polygon. Yes. Yes. Can someone explain that to me? Okay, so Meta is doing creator payouts. [31:09] of some kind. I need to dig in a little bit more what that actually means like in practice. But [31:13] Yeah, they're like trying to pay creators on their platforms. And they are using Polygon Stablecoins as one of the partners. So huge, huge for them. Okay. [31:24] Switching from [31:27] Rich Auntie to Tiago Sada. [31:31] The chief product officer of world. This man has done enough screen time to have like, [31:37] a full portfolio. Yes, we saw him really... [31:43] Like, I just want to give him his... [31:46] What's it called? Stars? No. Yeah. His laurels. [31:49] Flowers. Thank you. I want to give this man his flowers. We were in San Francisco a week, two weeks ago for the world event lift off and he ran the show and he did an unbelievable job. I'm not even just saying that because we're partnered with them. Like truly, I was like... [32:06] The stage presence, the organization, the confidence. And he had to go in and do that last minute because his boss, Alex, was in a bike accident. So, which...

[32:16] Like Godspeed, he's getting better. - To be thrown in the mix on that event, last minute, terrifying. It was a huge production. Only Tiago could rise to the occasion. And when he walked out on stage, you could tell that everybody likes to work for him because the crowd was so on his side. And I was like, if people didn't like him, no one would be like clapping his heart. One thing about Tosh, she loves an underdog. I love an underdog story. Anyway, he is a really nice guy. He is doing some really interesting stuff with World and Dina interviewed him this week and... [32:45] we are going to play the interview. Kate, are we... [32:47] we're ready to go. And so the interview is going and we'll be back in a few after this. [32:53] interview. [32:54] We have with us here Tiago Sada. Tiago Sada is the Chief Product Officer at Tools for Humanity, which is a company building world. Perhaps the most ambitious proof of human play happening in tech right now, I think. The headline numbers, 18 million verified humans, 23 countries, a partnership network that now includes Match Group, Razor, Okta, and Visa. And [33:19] Tiago is the guy running product on all of it. Welcome to Voice Club. [33:24] Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. [33:26] Excited to chat. Okay, so you just wrapped up a... [33:30] The huge keynote packed room big event. What's your vibe after things like that? Like do you go into decompression mode or are you just still in full sprint shipping mode? [33:42] Well, definitely in shipping mode. I think like there's just nothing like a live keynote. I really miss companies doing that. It doesn't scale very well, but it's just so much fun having a room and feeling the energy and announcing things and you sleep up and like it keeps going and doing live demos that are like real demos. And so Tim is super pumped. And it was really just the beginning. And now we get to ship all this stuff and then ship now even more stuff that's come up because of the event. So we're super excited about it.

[34:08] That's awesome. Okay, I want to get into all that. But before we do, I'd love to get a little bit more [34:13] of your background like how you came to be in this role so our listeners can get some more context and get to know you a bit. [34:20] For sure. So I grew up in Mexico, Mexico City all my life. My background is in robotics. It's with robots with my friends in middle school and high school. And through that, I got a scholarship to come to the US to study robotics engineering, computer science. [34:34] But as kids too nowadays, I dropped out halfway through to start a startup with the friends I used to build robots with in Mexico. So I went back home. We built a fintech up, a payments app. We were super lucky to go through YC in 2017. That's originally how I met Sam. And then we went our own ways. We ended up selling that company, scaled our product throughout Latina, like Brazil and Colombia and a bunch of different countries. [34:57] And then years after that, I took a sabbatical where they had a bunch of random stuff. And I was about to start another company. And a friend told me about what Alex and Sam were doing with WorldCoin at the time, now World. And I joined to help for three months before I would start my next company. And then here I am five years later. Nice. Okay. So World is very much built around this concept of proof of human. Can you explain that for listeners? Yeah. [35:22] For sure. So I think even just taking a step back, right, about six years ago Sam and Alex started this company. It's called Tools for Humanity and our mission as the name implies is basically to build the tools that we believe humans would need to thrive in the age of AI. Like back then that was kind of a hot take to say that AI was coming soon, that we needed new tools was like a very weird thing to say and we just believed that a bunch of things were going to be different in the world and one example of that is like how do you know who and what to trust online, right? And we think that

[35:50] um if the solution to a lot of these questions is to build a network of real humans you had a network of real humans you have like the base primitive that you have to tackle a bunch of the challenges that we're going to face including trust on the internet and so proof of human is like that baseline perimeter it's almost like a blue check mark that on an account on the internet tells me like hey this is a real and unique person but fully anonymously without knowing anything else about that and in terms of that is extremely powerful to yes solve some of the [36:20] but also unlock a bunch of new products that have never been possible before. And so that, our version of it is called World ID. [36:28] And what are some of those new things that are made possible with this protocol in place? [36:35] Yeah. So, and I think this really ties in well with all the new partners that we just announced. Because we used to talk just about categories, but now we have the apps that are actually using it. So we think about things like dating. Well, it's really important for security that you know that you're talking to a real person. And sometimes I've been swiping and someone has six fingers and you're like, what's going on here? Well, now Tinder is using this, even in the US, to let you prove that you're a human. Right? [37:05] Since video games came out, video game usage is actually now down because video games are now less fun because people cheat with that. Very serious things like financial transactions and business conversations that are happening over Zoom or DocuSign. Those are now places where you can prove that you are who you say you are and that you're a real human using World ID. And even just something as simple as concert tickets, where Taylor Swift will put her tickets on sale and they all get taken by bots.

[37:35] months of payroll of your salary on that and so with world idea artists can also [37:41] make it such that each human gets to buy one or two or four tickets so they can go with their friends but not more than that so that they cannot be scalped. [37:49] yeah i want to get to concert kit because that's that feels like a very legible um use case that i want to dig into more um but before that talk to me a little bit about how [37:58] you [38:00] when you say proof of human, like how can listeners do that? Like what does that process look like? [38:06] So it's a super simple process. Basically, to get WorldID, all you need to do is download an app. Download an app on the App Store, and now you have this little passport that travels with you on the internet. And now you can get different levels of verification on that. And different apps will require a really high or really low level of verification, depending on how secure it needs to be. And so the highest level of verification and the most popular is something called the human verification with a device called the ORV. [38:36] camera, it looks out of a Pixar movie. And you can find them in malls or in coffee shops near you. In some cities like San Francisco, you can actually come to your house and get verified. And it's sort of like going to the DMV. You only need to do it like once every three or so years. Where you go, you get verified, it takes like 20 seconds. [38:53] And then now you have that verification that lives on your phone and you can use it on any app that requests it and then in three years you'll go back and you'll get it again. There's lower levels of verification and we just released a new one that is just you take a selfie on your phone that is obviously less secure than the orb right but for some applications that's okay. If you're just going to like a tweet it's probably okay and probably people are not going to try to cheat so hard with really advanced AI or things like that. So just taking a selfie,

[39:20] is enough and all of those are equally private. We keep none of your data for that, all of your personal photos and things like that stay on your device and so that's the cool thing about WorldID. It not only solves the problem in a secure way but in a fully anonymous and privacy-preserving way. [39:32] Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned Taylor Swift tickets and sort of the chaos around ticketing in general and scalpers and bots and all of that. Talk to me a little bit about how that would work, how using World ID for that use case can come to life. [39:49] So it's super simple. We released a new tool, it's called ConcertKit, and it basically works very similar to the pre-sales that were already used for concerts, right? The artists will often do a pre-sale for a credit card or for a service. When you go on the ticketing sites, there's just a different class of tickets that are reserved for that. Well, now with ConcertKit, [40:07] artists can, regardless of the ticketing platform they're using, they can reserve a category of tickets that can only be purchased by humans. And so, [40:16] Artists can choose whether that is one or two or four tickets. And when you try to buy them, it'll ask you to prove that you're a human with your world ID, which just takes like one press of a button, and then you are allowed to buy those tickets. So for example, 30 Seconds to Mars just announced that in their upcoming tour, they will be reserving some tickets. [40:36] for verified humans and the tickets are actually on sale today. And one of my favorite things is like the day of the event, we actually threw a concert that night where, um, [40:44] only verified humans could get tickets. And it was really cool to see in real time, hundreds of thousands of bots trying to get the tickets, we'll release the numbers soon. But only a few thousand people that were real were able to get those tickets and we were able to preserve this really magical night for everyone that attended.

[41:01] Nice. That's validating for you guys. Okay. I want to shift into this idea of [41:08] Well, you said you've been working on... [41:11] tools for at tools for humanity for what like four five years yeah like five years at this five years you've been at it for a while i think like one thing when i think about you in that role and where world is at right now is that [41:22] Like you've spent a long time at this problem, but... [41:26] the [41:27] it's never been more potent of an issue as it is right now. So there's this conversation about like the dead internet, [41:34] theory and the idea of bots sort of overrunning the internet. And that at one point felt very kind of niche. And then now it's something that, [41:45] like my sister will text me about and I I just like wonder what it feels like to be [41:51] Sitting where you are, having seen that shift from it go from something that people were not thinking at all about to something that's a very mainstream conversation. Yeah. What's that been like? [42:02] Yeah, well, I mean, I have to admit that when I first heard about it five years ago, it was also pretty crazy to me. It's just, I think like so many things would have had to change in the world for this to be true. That like five years ago, I was like, this is kind of crazy. But then the more I spend time with Alex and with Sam talking about this, [42:19] it was clear that [42:21] As crazy as it was, that was definitely where we were headed, right? If indeed all these things happened with AI and if indeed everything evolved the way it would, [42:29] This is where things are going to end up as bizarre as they sounded right and everything else was going to break down, uh, captures and KYC and verify your documents, all those things. And so.

[42:40] I think it is weird. On one side of things, it's obviously very exciting to see that, okay, we were right. On the other hand, it's still kind of bizarre to see that indeed everything happened, and honestly, even faster than I expected personally, I think. Probably Sam and Alex, they were always very aggressive in their projections, and they believed that it's going to be much faster. I personally thought, okay, this may happen, but in like 10 or 15 years, a five is like, it's a really fast time for the world to change this much. [43:08] Yeah, that was a very humble answer, but I appreciate it. I feel the same way, like shocked by [43:13] by how quickly everything has changed. On that note, agent to agent, the agent world. So I have big open claw [43:23] fan user. I have a few that I have running across different things. And, you know, [43:29] Miami Claw could... [43:30] theoretically like book travel for me pay bills it could negotiate on my behalf mine is like lobotomized so it can't it's not at that level yet but theoretically we could get to a point very soon where it could and i think in particular what is interesting for me coming from crypto more as my background is the sort of agent to agent commerce and and that sort of starting happening in a real way and i'm wondering like where do you sit where does world sit in the agent [44:00] landscape? Like where, where are you guys in that? [44:03] For sure. So I think sometimes people think that since we're building the human network that we're like anti-bot, right? Or like bot stock. It's actually like the opposite. I think like agents are amazing. And as you say, if not already today, like pretty soon, they're going to take care of a bunch of things in our lives and it's going to be amazing.

[44:20] And the thing is, we just need to know what is what, right? Like we as users of apps need to know. [44:25] on a website, are we interacting with a person or with a bot? And those platforms themselves also need to know that. And so we think that the labels that something like WorldID or Proof of Human can enable actually unlocks and unleashes the power of bots. Because right now, most websites, they're just blocking out every single bot. [44:55] something called agent delegation, which is almost like power of attorney for you, where you can say, these three agents are acting on my behalf, go do whatever you want. And when they show up to a website, they will say, yes, I'm a bot, but I'm representing Tiago. And if that misbehaves, then Tiago also can block all of Tiago's agents. The second one is for agentic commerce, like you were saying. These little shoppers are amazing, but they're causing also a little bit of chaos sometimes. [45:25] using it with many bots. They can help prevent credit card fraud. And my personal favorite is they can also enable finally like limited drops where you can like drop a sneaker. We did this at the event and like you can say it's one sneaker per human. [45:37] and your agent can still get it for you so you don't have to stand in line for it, but he still only gets one bird. And the last one is something we call human in the loop, which is [45:46] While it's great for your agents to be running around doing stuff for you, every once in a while they'll hit steps. You want to make sure a human takes a look at that and approves it and there's a record of who did that. And so with WorldID, you can require your agent to receive a cryptographic proof from your WorldID showing like, "Yes, I approve this action."

[46:04] All of this stuff, this agent kit, this first version of it, we're now doing integrations with Vercel and with Octa and with Shopify and with Exa and with Coinbase and with BrowserBase. And we expect that it'll be like many more things because WorldID truly lets you unleash this power of agents. That makes a lot of sense to me hearing you talk about it. [46:34] and how that renders it [46:37] Like I spoke. [46:38] before about how like theoretically my mom could do this but like certainly can't right now because of that hostility where you let it loose and it's getting kicked off and and it's not like rightfully so these websites to your point don't know which is a [46:52] Uh, [46:53] Yeah, what is a good bot and what is a bad bot, right? So they have to err on the side of caution and just block all bots. And so with WorldID, now they can have like this little priority lane, not just for humans, but for [47:04] Bots that are representing humans, and then you can still keep the bad bots up. [47:08] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. That's cool. Okay, so you... [47:13] You grew up in Mexico and now you're running product at a company that I think most people would associate with San Francisco and a U.S. market for better for us. That may or may not be true, but I think just like in folks' minds. And I'm wondering just about like your background background. [47:30] And [47:31] how that shows up at all in the roadmap, like how you think about prioritizing markets, like what's, how does that show up for you?

[47:40] Yeah. [47:41] I'll say in a couple of ways. [47:43] The first one is like, look, it's in the name, right? It's called World. And it's not meant for like a metropolis in the US, meant for like the whole world. And that means like the first place I ever went to onboard users to was in like, also in Norway. I was walking on the streets of Oslo to like Mexico City where I grew up and like Asia and the US and like everything in between. And so just like growing up and understanding how much things like localization and things like that matters. Otherwise, I couldn't use these products. Like it really matters. And then I would say, [48:12] One thing that's been interesting about the project is growing up in Mexico was probably on the more serious side compared to all of my other Latino friends. But now here, I'm with a bunch of Germans and a bunch of really smart people from Silicon Valley. And I'm like a social butterfly. I was going around the office hugging people and making jokes. And so I've gotten to bring a little bit of that Latino space, which is weird for me because for the first 25 years of my life, [48:35] It was the opposite. I was always a very serious and constrained one in the room. So that's been really fun. That's funny. OK. And one last thing here before we wrap. So when I was doing some research on you, I found that you had wrote... [48:48] I think in an op-ed that you hated crypto before Ethereum had flipped you. And I'm wondering, just like generally zooming out from world and all the good work that you're doing there, what's [49:02] The equivalent like current day version of that for you, like something that you were skeptical about that you're warming up to now or that you see yourself starting to warm up to now.

[49:13] Thank you. [49:14] So, [49:15] Thank you. [49:16] I mean, it's going to sound like a cop out, but I think agents, for the past 15 years, I've gotten pitched like chatbot products every other week. And they're like cool demos, but they're just like objectively not useful products. They suck as a product. And I think they've been tried for a long time. And so... [49:32] As all of these new agents have started coming out in recent years, I was like, okay, here we go again. But I think it's now clear that they're getting good enough to do some things and do them really well. And so that's been something where I've had to say, okay, now, yeah, they sucked for the last 10 years, and that was great. But now it's probably time to dust off some of those ideas and understand what are the implications of this, because this thing is clearly here to stay and to be the future. And so that's what I would say for that. I love that. [50:02] us and it was a pleasure chatting with you. [50:05] Likewise, thank you so much for having me. [50:09] Okay. Great interview. What a really lovely guy. Great. He did a great interview. Did a great [50:17] talk when he was there. Yeah. So articulate. Yeah. Electric, really. Electric, electric. Also, I love just Dina at the Venetian. We're no longer there, so I can dox that. At the Venetian in Vegas, just taking the interview. [50:31] Yeah, they look great. Okay, we're now going to talk about something that you have been working on. Yes. And I love a chill moment. It's also... [50:42] It's it's.

[50:43] You told me some things before the stream started, and I'm like, "Wow, this is like a cultural moment that's happening." 100%. Yeah. So, what is... Well, it's called the AI Psychosis Summit. It's happening tonight in New York City. [50:55] And tell us a little bit about what's going on. What's the cultural moment? Yes. Okay. So full details first. Let's get that out of the way. The AI Psychosis Summit is happening from 6 to 10 p.m. tonight at 93 Canal. So basically what's happening is we assembled AI artists and practitioners and just anyone who we thought kind of had... [51:16] AI psychosis and we are going to put them into a room. Exactly. Yeah, it's a vibe. Some people have in a really scary way. Some people have it in a really productive way. And we just said, come one, come all as long as you're interesting. [51:28] Okay. And we're going to set up screens for them, whatever else they need projectors, and there's just going to be a lot of [51:35] AI hullabaloo, one might say. So it's kind of like a trade show format or like a science fair gallery, like something like that. It's not, no one's going to be sitting in a chair listening to a presentation. They're going to be like... [51:46] Going around talking to the people who made this stuff about how they made it. I'm seeing what's going on. There's like people doing audio projects. There's people doing visual products. [51:54] projects. There's people there's someone who made a game that sort of simulates being bullied into um, maybe I'll say an extreme action by AI. Oh, so a lot of really artistic things going on. There's someone who built like back to our childhood. [52:11] There's someone who built an app that's like a really intentionally psychophantic and like basically just kind of

[52:18] hyperbolizing all the bad things about AI. And they made a model that's about that. So you can go deeper into psychosis. [52:24] Cool. A lot of interesting projects. Okay. Would you say that... [52:29] This is... [52:30] and art. [52:31] focused exhibition of these projects? Or is it like... [52:35] the intersection of art and culture is happening here tonight? So I think like when we were... [52:40] trying to get people to participate or like show stuff we were kind of saying hey we want non-commercial applications of ai like my thesis for the event is like i've been to plenty of ai events where [52:51] People are like, here's my [52:53] like workflow or like here's something that I did to optimize like how I do my job. And I'm kind of like, Well, I don't care about your job. Right? I want I'm interested in people who use AI to express themselves and like do something new. And honestly, I'm really drawn to like, [53:08] like stupid uses of AI where you've had this idea that you've just never been able to execute on because it's stupid. It's like, why would you put forth a bunch of effort to do something that's kind of trivial? And then now it's like, well, you can do a couple prompts and get it out there. I actually think that's really cool. So in a way to me, like the frivolousness of the things that people are, some people are creating, some people are like, [53:28] creating really truly crazy and impressive things. Yeah. But I think like the frivolous stuff, the frivolousness of it can also be, [53:34] -like, new and exciting as well. - Yeah, so basically like, um... [53:38] non-utility use cases of AI, basically. Yeah, yeah. Most of it, I would say, reads... [53:44] as art but it's not like restricted to that necessarily okay like the underbelly of ai

[53:51] Yeah, kind of. It's like maybe the people who [53:54] aren't making things that would get them funding or would like yeah otherwise be amplified we're trying to create [54:01] a place for them to show those things. Macy, one of the organizers put it like really well, I think, in an interview that we recently did. And she said, "We're trying to create a scalable platform for people who are building unscalable things with AI." Cool. Cool. Yeah. [54:17] I love that. You're putting the link in the chat. Great. Can people still attend or is it closed at this point? I think there should be like some tickets left. We have like a thousand people or something. You directly. Absolutely not. The event has like very much broken containment. What is your cell phone number again? Let's not go there. I think maybe get on the wait list for a ticket on the designated platform that's for that. But yeah, there should be tickets available. Yeah. [54:47] that come up for me. One, I feel excited to see an era of [54:53] technology where [54:55] art can have like some really, or artistic expression or non-commercial expression that the [55:02] tooling of AI is like really interesting for that and really additive to that. Because as we know with the industry that we all came in, came in and up in together in the cryptocurrencies industries, they're... [55:17] the artistic movements that happened there. Yeah, there are some outliers to this.

[55:23] But I was reminded this week while I was in Las Vegas for Bitcoin Las Vegas, which was a cultural experience of its own. [55:32] that the art, [55:34] that comes out of some of these cultural movements is... [55:38] offensive to say the least like it's it's it's tough to look at it's horrifically bad it's horrifically bad and i don't want to name names [55:48] If you follow me on Instagram, you will, I will, and I have named names there in my stories recently. Because I was, my eyes were assaulted by some of this work. And I just think that... [56:01] that tool, crypto blockchain technology, [56:05] Not super... [56:07] There are some outliers again. [56:09] I think some interesting things happen. I think there's some, the business of art could blockchain, there's applications, but art generally, a lot of the art that came out of that, no, thank you. No, thank you. Yeah. So I'm excited for AI because I think that we're experiencing, of course there's slop, but I think there's, we're experiencing something a little different with this wave. Yeah, totally. I think like we realized as we were curating the projects that we have this kind of bias toward interactive stuff or like a lot of my MO for the past few years has been like, [56:39] And so I'm interested in like social platforms as art and participatory art and experiential art. And so there's going to be a lot of that type of thing. And I think that is the thing that was so hard to make before because it's often so tech heavy or infra heavy. And like that, I think, is the most exciting door to me that's been open. Because yeah, I agree with you that like on an aesthetic level, like visual stuff. Yeah, not super amazing, but there's like a lot of cool stuff that we're highlighting.

[57:09] with AI and the one thing that it's not commoditized is taste. [57:13] That's the taste discourse. But I actually do think... [57:18] it's interesting to watch people distill their creative tastes. [57:23] in an [57:25] and see the application of that through some of the art pieces that I assume will be there tonight. Yeah, yeah, totally. Like I did this vibe coding prompt session the other day where I asked, I wanted... [57:38] my agent to make me a website that would create an outfit I should wear based on the weather of the day. [57:45] The outfits it put together. Bad. [57:47] Oh my God. I was like, we cannot be dressing people like this. Like that is offensive to the world. It was putting me in like a little Ugg boot, a little flannel with a sweater. I was like, wait, yeah, that's like a vibe. Like I don't know what. Wait, no, no, no, no, no. In like a tooth, no, in the wrong way. In the wrong way. I will say the other day when I was going to San Francisco, I was like, I genuinely, it was, it was like 50 degrees. It was the weather, cloudy, rainy, [58:17] or, [58:18] And I literally had to go. I asked Claude. I was like, what does someone wear? Like a 50 degree weather is so tough. It's awkward. And 50 degree weather in San Francisco is so tough because it feels so much colder. Yeah. Anyway, so I would love that app. You maybe fine tune it. Yeah. Well, I think going tonight would actually be helpful to figure out even when I was trying to [58:37] adjust the prompt, I was like, it's actually hard for me to describe what good style is, too, for them to better correct us. Like,

[58:45] I was trying to think about how to express that. And I feel like tonight will be a very good example of like, [58:49] very descriptive prompts that create uniquely different [58:53] creative [58:55] identities yeah totally yeah because i think it's like we want the obviously the artistic product should be legible but the artists are all there so that you can talk to them about how they made it so yeah i'm going to be farming some stack information from all of them so that i can improve so yeah you could [59:11] find the person I know I kind of want the receipt all the art [59:15] Like the prompt receipts on all the cards. Oh my gosh. That would be cool. That would be cool. The entire history of the prompts. Yeah. Okay. So you, before we move on quickly, you created an app for tonight. [59:26] Yes. So, well, it's not really for tonight. It's for the rest of humanity and it's facilitating connection for, you know, everyone forever. And it's in the app store and it's in the app store. And it's not even test flight. This is his art form. I started it like a little, like a little over three weeks ago and it was in test flight, but I was like, we need to get it on the app store for the AI psychosis summit. It's called shake on the app store. It's shake social. [59:52] And basically the point is it tracks [59:56] your [59:57] um your social relationships your irl social relationships so like other social media platforms are trying to create a new network like [1:00:04] creating parasociality i'm just trying to map out what already exists okay surveillance technology [1:00:10] social. Great. [1:00:12] Oh, so there's a Palantir partnership? Yeah. Well, not yet. I actually don't sell the data or anything like that.

[1:00:20] - Well, yeah. - Yet. Keyword. - Who knows what can happen? - This is my experience of it. I set it up. I went in. I downloaded it from the app store. [1:00:29] I also saw your full-- [1:00:32] my legal name which is matt van omeren yeah i have no your legal name i was like oh my gosh give a name i i didn't know quasi matt had a full [1:00:41] name and a Vaughn in it. A Vaughn. Van, yeah. Van. [1:00:44] fan okay okay so i downloaded it and i i made my profile very quick very easy very seamless good job and then it's like hey [1:00:53] "Hey, like, do you want to connect with other people in your area?" You shake it and then we connected. -Right. -Like, you shake your phone. -Yeah, we go like this. [1:01:01] yeah and then it connects and there's a little screen we're united and it builds out a social graph of everyone six points yeah you can keep shaking for more points what are the original [1:01:14] It's just a leaderboard. So like shakes are like the meaningless gameable thing. But then the more important thing is like, [1:01:20] how many day how many unique days you've shaken with someone in increases your connection on the graph okay so you can see like okay who's besties and you can have um [1:01:30] No. Okay, totally. I was trying to yes but or yes and that but I couldn't come up with anything. Someone has 2,024 shakes? [1:01:40] Yeah, because if you so if you're in a big group, you can do a group shake and then the bigger the group, the faster you get shakes. Whoa, if you get together with seven people and shake your phone for a minute straight, you'll get like hundreds of shakes. Oh my God. Wow. Okay, so I'm going to be just if tonight.

[1:01:54] 6:[redacted address]. She'd be shaking it. Exactly. In the biggest group you can find just taking your phone everywhere. Okay. Whoa. Really cool. The original form of connection. Shake. [1:02:03] shake to me yeah exactly um congratulations on all the success thus far on the app on the ai psychosis summit happening again tonight um in dimes close to dime square basically yeah i'm so excited to see um i can't wait the epicenter of our art and culture dime square it's so true yeah well now it is yeah as of today um okay we have time for one other topic uh [1:02:29] Jules. Oh, yeah. You have a topic here. Something really spooky happened to me this week. It's actually like maybe my worst nightmare came true, which is, you know, when you like are watching people in public and you just see them do something like you see someone like pick their nose in the car and you're just like, oh my God, I can't believe I like witnessed that. Yeah. Like, [1:02:49] I'm so embarrassed for that person. Yeah. [1:02:52] But like, then you sort of just go down this rabbit hole of like, what have other people witnessed of me that I'm not aware of and have... [1:02:59] no idea or how do I make this moment about me? Right. Exactly. [1:03:04] And I was minding my own business at a coffee shop in San Francisco this week. Do you want to say which coffee shop or no? [1:03:11] St. Frank. [1:03:12] Great establishment, great coffee. Shout out. Shout out St. Frank. And my phone starts pinging. [1:03:20] And people start tagging me in this tweet. And I was like, what is going on? And basically someone in line at St. Frank had taken a photo of the table I was at.

[1:03:28] the [1:03:29] Photo was not pointed at me. I just happened to be in the background. You can see me like locked in on my computer. [1:03:34] needing a lot more Botox than I have based on how I'm looking at my computer screen. But [1:03:41] this poor girl gets like roasted for her like attempt at making a clawed, [1:03:48] like prompted deck. - Okay, so this is what's happening. - This is what's happening. - Someone's standing in the line. - Yep. - That person pulls their phone out, takes a photo. - Yes. - To make fun of this woman who has her laptop facing them. [1:04:01] working on [1:04:02] using Claude to create a deck. Yes. You are... [1:04:06] sat behind that woman. - Behind. Not associated. - And not associated. - No. Person in line, then tweets making fun of this woman. - Yep. - Who's making the Claude deck. - Mm-hmm. - That tweet goes viral. - Mm-hmm. - Wait, what is the nature of the criticism or like, what are they making fun of? Just the concept of making a deck with Claude? - No. - People... So there were two roasts happening simultaneously. There was one camp that was just straight up roasting the deck that she was making. That it was not very good, kind of embarrassing. [1:04:33] not really impressive. [1:04:34] prompting that was happening on screen. Got it. Okay. [1:04:38] It could have been her first one. Maybe she had to refine and iterate. The second roasting, though, was people just criticizing that this man put this girl on blast. And that he was sort of intrusively entering into her workspace and revealing that without her consent, basically. So there were a few discourses happening. Mm-hmm. [1:04:58] And I'm just an innocent bystander. You're just an innocent bystander. I love the idea though, that this was guerrilla marketing for Show Me Your Stack.

[1:05:07] Because we were like, Jules, what are you doing? [1:05:12] That would be like really iconic if we were that like in the interwebs. Okay, but I do think this is like a notable thing is that I actually, my hot take is that [1:05:22] If you are working in public at a coffee shop, you are putting yourself out there to be roasted. Wow, we have support from the crowd. Let's hear it. Yeah, I agree, actually. You're in public. And as a result, your screen is a public... [1:05:36] facing events. - Orifice. Yeah. [1:05:39] What I without a cheese. [1:05:41] - That's okay. But then she has to be okay with building in public, which is exactly what she's doing. - Yeah. Yeah. Screen protector could be an option. I've seen people really like protect their screen in a public place. - You can do it. An intimate connection. Every single time I go into a coffee shop, I am eavesdropping inappropriately and also looking at screens as much as I want. - I do have to say, [1:06:04] You are on the furthest. I would say like in, in terms of like people who respect people's like, [1:06:12] privacy and um thank you for that on one side and people who are willing to to not do that in order to get somewhere and and do something you're way more on this end this is actually what you're really a perfect fit for this show because you're willing to like open people's tabs and double click on things and be like wait what's going on here in a way that like I would literally never do yeah and you can even have a phone call in front of the dry cleaner I can't

[1:06:42] some of that and I respect every I respect the way that you are in the world around this because it's challenging to me in a good way um okay I think a few things one I wish the oh we would have shown you the photo and the tweet but it was taken down it was taken down so they got him the tweet has been deleted because it blew up in such a tremendous way and on both sides the person [1:07:06] published it. - Yes. - Who was getting absolutely roasted. And the woman... [1:07:10] who was creating the deck also getting roasted getting roasted yeah so the and [1:07:16] My biggest qualm with all of this is, [1:07:19] is, [1:07:20] I'm sorry, you can't remove it. You stand by your tweet. Stand by your work. Yeah. If you are going to publicly shame someone, [1:07:28] you need to be prepared for that to go off on the internet. [1:07:31] And that is my biggest problem with this situation. - I like it. They shouldn't have walked back. - Also, I wanted to see it so that we could pretend that we did it. - Yeah, recreate it. - And I will say the deck... [1:07:44] wasn't great but again she could be learning growing she could be like yeah she wasn't ready for it to be public i think but it was kind of well yeah i mean we're assuming that like she didn't expect it she certainly didn't expect it to have the audience that it ended up yeah that's fair yeah i don't know i'm kind of like yeah that's my thing is i think it's okay to take the picture i think the people that are roasting her for having a bad duck [1:08:09] Why are you so quick to criticize without having more context? Have you not had a first draft before? Is everything that you create perfect immediately? Maybe think about that before you throw a stone. We're opening Kwasi's pages on his computer. Okay, I do have a question. Do we feel that planes are different? No, absolutely not. If you are working on a plane and you pull up information, that is available to everyone around you. If you're watching a movie on the plane,

[1:08:34] You know I'm watching that next to you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do know that. - And people pull up [1:08:40] If you're on the subway, that is public goods. [1:08:46] - Public transit. - Planes are public transit. - Okay. - No. - People pull up the craziest shit. - There are often ways of positioning your body to hide things though. Like I would say if I'm gonna do something really, really crazy, I'll just like back against the wall, like phone up here. - Okay, so if you see Klaus Rimet doing that, you know something is, oh. - Yeah, like I'm just like reading some sort of sensitive message. - Exactly. - Yeah, maybe having a beef or you never know. - You never know. - That's why it's private. You're not supposed to know. - I think in the current day and age of surveillance and just human curiosity, [1:09:14] just assume you're always on blast. - I do think that that is fair. - Yeah. [1:09:18] I think you actually do. Whether it's right or it's wrong, whether you agree or you don't, I think the message is you need to be prepared. You're on blast. You're on blast. It's public information now. And you should just be operating in the world as though your dry cleaner is eavesdropping and going to steal your IP. Okay. So I do want to say there's one other sort of adjacent discourse to this around... [1:09:43] Um, [1:09:44] Like, [1:09:46] A few years ago, there was this TikTok that went crazy, crazy viral of this woman... [1:09:53] who, [1:09:54] I've photographed these two girls in a coffee shop. I think they were in New Orleans and they were on a bachelorette trip for their other. The two girls were. This woman is a stranger. She records them. She posts a TikTok with language on it. And it's basically like, girl, if you are in New Orleans this weekend for your bachelorette trip and these are your friends, these girls are not your friends. They were talking mad shit.

[1:10:18] about you and [1:10:21] That's exciting. I feel [1:10:22] That is not okay. [1:10:26] - Nobody else. - Wait, no. Like, 'cause I agree with you, but I need to figure out why. Like, what is the rule? - Okay. [1:10:33] Open computer, open phone. That's like sort of like you're giving screen time. You're opening something up to people. You with your friend. [1:10:42] or your partner or your colleague or whatever in a public place having a conversation that is not content for for someone else to take and distribute [1:10:52] Like let people talk shit, let people cheat, let people do their lives. And then it is their responsibility for whatever is going to happen to happen. But like, it's not your public, like it's not, [1:11:03] my right to take that information [1:11:06] and essentially make it my content. Wait, so did she take a video of their conversation? Or did she just take a picture of them and then say... She took a picture of them and then had quotes. [1:11:16] Okay, yeah, because my thing is like, I feel like that's, [1:11:20] sort of fine. I'm more like, why did people believe her? [1:11:23] Like I would just take a picture. You can just take a picture of anyone and say, oh, this person just killed someone. And then now I'm now we're here. And like, okay, well, they did. I feel like people do this all the time, though. People will like go on, sit on a plane and be like, if your partner is on a flight and sitting in 7B, I'm just like, this is crazy behavior. Like people need to find out this information, the good old fashioned way by going through their partner's phones. You know what I'm saying?

[1:11:53] It's just not okay. So anyway, it's adjacent. We do have to, we do have to. Oh my God. But I feel I have opened myself up now for anybody who's ever seen this live stream and ever seen me in public to [1:12:05] Oh, I can't wait to put you on blast. Oh my gosh. That was an error. Okay. We are going to now show you someone's stack. Show you the stack? Do you want to, you introduce it. Okay. We have officially launched the first episode of Show Me Your Stack with my friend Shiv. [1:12:22] And we're so excited for you to be on this journey with us. [1:12:26] in [1:12:27] intrusively looking at people's stacks there it is okay so we're gonna watch it here um together and then we will have the youtube link [1:12:34] for you to watch on your own again and again, for you to share with all your friends. We're going to talk about how to get involved. But the main thing is... [1:12:42] Subscribe. [1:12:44] watch here, leave some comments. Yeah. I'm curious how your stack changes as a result. Tomorrow we're launching a fun little gimmick of roasting your stack. [1:12:53] So be prepared for just a ton of stock content. [1:12:57] All episodes are live at Boys Club World on YouTube. [1:13:01] Hit the bell. [1:13:03] How big was the browser company deal? $40 million or something. $40 million in one weekend. That's how it's done. [1:13:12] We are talking with my friend, Ship, today. [1:13:15] Shiv is a masterful builder, constantly working on a million different projects. I was at Meta for six years. I am building Turf, a social sports consumer app. Here's my stack.

[1:13:27] You actually built out a very, very early version of an AI chatbot back in 2016. Pre-LLM era, worked on this fun idea with a friend that's called Wonder. The premise was it will help you remember the things that you often forget. So you can ask it to remember [1:13:45] and remember things for you. We use this tool for natural language called with.ai. This felt very magical back then, some basic language understanding. [1:13:54] And under the hood, we're doing classic software engineering information retrieval, TF-IDF, kind of like a glimpse of what things could be. One of the fun things I worked on this past couple of weeks or so is this app called Asterisk, which is a browser assistant. And you can chat with your tabs, similar to what the browser is doing, but now it just works on any browser. Every AI company under the sun now is trying to launch a browser. What browser are you still using? I use three browsers. Three browsers. [1:14:24] it's no longer supported, actively developed or maintained. But this is my daily driver and I have profiles for like work, which is turf. And this is my personal, which is like a bunch of skills and a bunch of things that I just use for my own thing. So you still really like this component of art, having personal spaces. Yeah, I love this part. Dia is great. It still doesn't have some of the things that art gives me right now. Like if I'm watching a video, it doesn't do the motion out. The biggest pieces of the browser for you are spaces, work, personal, different projects, [1:14:54] Yep. What else? I mean, if it's Chromium based, all your extensions can come along, carry my bookmarks, which is great. The distraction-free modern art, I just do Command S. I just see this one screen. Everything's gone. Moving into Dia then, which is doing a lot of the school that you built, building out this chatbot alongside your browser. What are your biggest qualms with the way that a lot of these companies have built out AI browsers? Couple things. One is in addition to just being able to chat with the browsers, sometimes I can also want

[1:15:24] Exactly. On Twitter or on X right now, long form content is kind of like being pushed. I don't really read a lot of those things. So we're AI summarizing everything. I'm just summarizing everything. I can take screenshots of whatever. One thing that I wish Dia had was I have these conversations, chats and whatever. There's no way for me to go and look at them after. This is one of my biggest frustrations with it as well, actually. I can literally go here. I can see exactly all the conversation that I had. I can go to a video and ask, what's it about? Blah, blah, blah. [1:15:54] backlog. Yeah. And everything is local on your browser. So it's nothing saved anywhere else. All these different apps and services that I use, all that data goes into their post hog service or whatever, which I don't want. Now I can just go to provider, provide an API key. So it's like my account and then just use it directly. Wow. Can I see your Dia setup? Yeah, of course. It has a bunch of quick actions and everything, but I have them all on Arc right now. And the missing piece that I liked about Dia was being able to chat and do all those things. But now that I have this extension [1:16:24] built for myself. - You can bring it anywhere. - I can phase out of Dia now. - You have to replace him to Dia in a weekend. - Yeah. - How big was the browser company deal? [1:16:34] 40 million or something? I don't know. $40 million in one weekend. That's how it's done. What is the third browser? At the end of the day, I still go back to Chrome if I want to do more of like dev console and testing.

[1:16:51] So this is Cursor, one of the IDE tools that I use. I've gone through Cursor, Vinsur, Cloud Code, Disk Terminal, and I've finally been using VS Code. Again, it's kind of like the vanilla one. I'm back to it. [1:17:04] saying Cursors have released some cloud agents that if you give it a change it also does a video recording of what it did so you can see what the final product is gonna look like. You don't have to run it. So it gives you a simulated experience. Pretty much. I gotta go back and now I guess test it out. My terminal I have it inside Cursor so cloud code runs inside [1:17:22] cursor as well for me. So no more VS code. We'll see how long it goes. One thing with cursor is it can be super buggy sometimes. I mean, I don't blame them and you're a fast moving team and there's a bunch of things coming in. I tend to have a bit more control on the code that's being generated. People say online things like, oh yeah, I could just do it on my phone and I'm taking the dog on a walk and I push some PRs. I wish I could be like that, but I want to see what output was [1:17:52] I think this is like one of the biggest qualms that people have with agent-based work. We're just like not there yet and actually trusting these tools. These tools love writing code. I strongly believe in lesser the code, lesser the bugs. I want these agents and tools to write the least code possible for that functionality. Right, they have not learned the art of concise, tight code. I pit these agents against each other. Codex on the left, some code on the middle, Cloud code on the right.

[1:18:22] kind of review it and critique it. I have this agent called Code Review Uncommitted. It's little instructions. Use this agent when you need to review recently written or uncommitted code changes. Typically those made by Codex or other automated tools. - Codex happening on the left side, which is actually generating code, sub-agent in cloud code. [1:18:41] that is responsible for reviewing that code and critiquing it. Exactly. Yeah. [1:18:46] Oh, another pair of eyes are good. So it's like same thing. I just do it here. So when do your eyes actually get to review this code? After they've gone back and forth and really minimized. Or if they're like kind of circling around and not actually getting to a point, then I take the time to like figure out what's going on and kind of steer them. Yeah. [1:19:05] When you open your computer, what is the first thing we do in the day? I have a skill on [1:19:10] codex this call today all right well shiv's today skill is loading i thought now would be a great time to introduce you to our sponsor brucell this episode is brought to you by v0 by brucell v0 by brucell is like your favorite coding agent but on the web and no setup required whether you're technical or not take your ideas out of the group chat and into production it's not just a vibe coder but an agent builder where you can prompt build and ship in minutes every prompt becomes real deployable code connected to your stack it's never been easier to create a new landing page [1:19:40] or build your first agent. Visit vzero.app to go from idea to production in seconds. That pulls in the top three things I want to do on Lanier as well as pull up any GitHub PRs that demand my attention. You're someone who's not only just working on your day job but you're also working on like 10 million projects at once. How are you managing the personal project stack alongside

[1:20:02] what you actually have to do in a day to day. - I've tried a bunch of different ToDo apps and everything, but at the end of the day, I come down to using reminders. Apple reminders. - Apple reminders. - I have from shopping to today, to reminders, to even groceries. - What? - Based on different things I want to get at different stores. - I have never seen someone double down on Apple reminders. - Even literally like cleaning sheets in my bedroom. It's two weeks. - This man does pay rent on time and does clean his sheets every two weeks. [1:20:30] - Thank God. Thanks to Apple Reminders. - The other things that I wanna do for that day, I kinda do it old school. I have a piece of paper and I just write it down. - Let's see it. - I have it in my backpack right here. [1:20:40] This is like my main checklist. I put it in front of my desk. So this is an analog stack. I call it Shiv's List, kind of a thing by from Craigslist. I had a bunch of things I wanted to get rid of. I could go down the route of like having it be posted as individual items on Facebook. That was just not going to scale if you have a lot of things and a lot of people are going to reach out. Instead of going through the traditional Facebook marketplace, you decided to build your own Facebook marketplace.

[1:21:10] can go into like whatever item they're interested in and they can heart it claim dibs on it with a message full e-commerce site of your own i had people like reach out to me saying oh are you the shiv from shiv's i'm not gonna lie i found it on facebook marketplace and i was like wait what i know shiv like that's funny what did he do since i talked to him 24 hours ago you were telling me earlier about not just selling things but also things that you want to get for your new [1:21:40] I wanted to find people who might have something that I want. - Basically, your flow of going through this is you outlined analog style. - So I was like, this is my Figma to start. - Whoa, no way! - Yeah. - So you're actually drawing out. - Once I have a better idea in my notebook, then I either go jump into code directly, [1:22:00] or use Figma to get those finer details. This is low fidelity. Okay, so what would be the next step after this? I could have like a slash wants route, which basically like curates a bunch of images or products that I want backed by the database that I have. Clicking into each product will give you more details on the product if other people are interested. Probably have a button that submits a proposal. So this is like the UI pieces. Over here, you actually outlined some of the new components that are required. A wants table and a proposal table. I went ahead and asked my [1:22:30] Cloud over here, kind of spec out some stuff. So you're going straight into code for that? Yeah, because I want to see what it generates. It already has access to my existing tools. And I also have, look at UI skills. Make sure your UI is properly constrained, all the CSS defaults correctly. And if that's frame of motion and animation, which I do have, follows the best practices. Amazing. So let's see you use this UI skill. I went ahead and asked it to build the wants route.

[1:22:58] Looks like it has already done it. Check it out, localhost.com. [1:23:01] Clicking that, that's an error. So here's what I would do. Literally just take a screenshot and go back to my LLM. Seeing this, please fix. [1:23:09] Please fix. There you go. [1:23:12] Wants and selling, but there's no product in Wants here. What's a Want you have? EAMS Workdesk. I just added... Oh my gosh, love. It's just crazy expensive, $1,800. I hope someone's got something and they want to get rid of it. So I know what to do, which is have the LLM seed my database with the Wants, because I was able to give it some explicit instructions. It's creating those mutations or scripts that it's going to run. And once I deploy and run this thing, I see Wants here. [1:23:40] Oh! [1:23:41] There you go. Incredible. [1:23:43] I gave it a prompt and it uses the skills as reference. So what happens is you're closer to one-shotting it than having to like re-prompt and keep fixing and all those kind of things. One thing I love about the tools that we have right now is that it's made computer science more being an art form than being engineering. Prior to that there were things that I could imagine that I wanted to exist and then there's a reality of like is it actually feasible. Now [1:24:13] imagine and think but I'm glad I went through some of the things back in the day that I feel like is helping me a lot now in building things a lot faster. You did the manual process to now be able to automate it. I am very impressed with your stock shift. It's a pleasure first of all and the funny thing is

[1:24:31] In a couple of weeks, some of the tools that I'm using is probably going to be obsolete. This is the stack that we prefer around here. I love that. This is the perfect stack. Our database is at the bottom. Which you prefer? I think right now it's Convix. [1:24:47] I'm more of a buttermilth. [1:25:14] I love it. Congrats, Jules. Episode one, now out on YouTube. And who... [1:25:23] What's the show brought to you by? Oh, by my favorites, Vercel. Tell us. If you are a startup building with agents, look no further than Vercel. Their agentic infrastructure gives you and your agents everything you need to ship. And if you're supported by one of their hundreds of VC or accelerator partners, you've access to exclusive discounts and benefits. [1:25:45] deploy faster, scale globally, and ship world-class AI products. [1:25:50] Check out the platform thousands of companies use from day zero to IPO at vercel.com slash startups. [1:25:58] There it is. Whoa. We love them. Okay. So that's the first episode of Show Me Your Stack. There will be new episodes every other week.

[1:26:07] They are available only on... [1:26:10] On YouTube. YouTube. Boys Club World YouTube. There it is. Go subscribe. Go watch the episode. [1:26:18] Share with friends. This has been a labor of love by many, and it's a lot of fun to watch and see and have in the world. So we hope that you like it and we hope that you share it. Okay. That is our show today. [1:26:32] Thank you guys for being here. Always a pleasure. So fun. Thanks for having me. Love being here with the boys. It was electric. That's it. [1:26:39] Peace and blessings.