Ep: 229 - Boys Club Live: Digital Asset Summit, Token Management, Macro Perps, AI Fruit Love Island, with guests Lindsey Winder and Kaledora

[00:01] We'll be right back. [00:31] you [00:33] Great, great. We'll never, never not be terrified of a hot mic. We'll never not respect a mic situation. We've had too many hot mics. Hi. How's it going? How are you doing? I'm so happy you're here. I'm so happy to be here. Got up at 4 a.m. I know. To get here from Nashville. I know. When I saw you on the street, I was like, man, she's journeyed. She's lived many lives. I've lived a full life. But happy to be here. Happy to be back. [00:59] In the studio. In the studio here. Our friends. Kate. [01:03] just so people know, is head to toe in a McDonald's fit? [01:07] Which like [01:09] Doesn't surprise me a little bit. Actually, that's not... There she comes. Come on. Let's go on. Calm down. Okay. I think I need to show people that it's like a velour tracksuit. How would you describe this? A velour tracksuit. [01:22] Oh, and the tie. I didn't... [01:25] Oh, Japan, Tokyo. You got this in Tokyo. Could you show the back the, um, yeah, particularly the, exactly. Incredible. So great. Incredible stuff.

[01:34] She's got a jacket as well, an additional jacket. Anyway, Kate, love the look. Just always coming through. Love it. Okay, I need to share my pants. [01:43] Now it's time for you to show your pants. A little bit of a crisis that I'm having with my pants. Okay. I have, I'm so, we have been wanting to talk about these pants all morning. And every time Dean is like, shut up. We have to save it. It has to be on the live. Save it for the show. Well, mostly because last week on the show, it was last week, right? It was last week. Yeah. [02:00] about me [02:01] searching for this type of trouser. Yes. Which I'm about to show, which is a trouser, a normal trouser with a skirt overlay. Yes. [02:10] I put it in our company Slack and said, Kate, can you help me find a dupe? She sent me back within five minutes. I do have to say there is a percentage of Kate's time that is... [02:21] allocated to that. Yeah, it was on a Saturday morning, so I didn't eat into company time for this. But she very quickly wrote back, [02:33] with five links. [02:34] to incredible work amazon.com pretty little things is to move i think is where i ultimately got these [02:41] Pretty Little Things, is that what it's called? [02:43] Oh, that's the name of the brand. [02:45] I got the pretty, I don't, this is the first time I ever ordered from this shop. [02:49] Did it come quick? Usually I feel like really quick, really cheap, like 20 bucks. Anyway. Okay. It's time. Yeah. It's your moment. Here's the pan. Let's see. [02:57] Also, [02:58] I'm not Mike, so I need you to say what Mike is saying. [03:02] It's giving waitress. It is kind of giving waitress. No, it's giving apron. It's giving apron a little bit.

[03:12] That's the vibe I've been... [03:16] Thank you. [03:18] Kate's saying it's a popular vibe. [03:21] Yes. [03:23] I literally felt like I had a black, I think maybe I also need your styling help. [03:29] No, I was like, someone might think I'm like bussing tables. Someone's going to be like, can you take this cup? I have, I just want to hit you with a link. I do realize they're more expensive than, okay. So my first exposure to this type of pant was Blake Finucane, our friend of the pod. The Ghani ones. The Ghani ones. $350. I know. I'm just telling you where it came from, where I've landed. Okay. They're $350. I'm feeling really defensive about the price because I'm also feeling like I should have [03:59] probably but we're just gonna back into it okay so [04:03] I saw those on her. I was like, I'm obsessed. I made a rule for myself. I can't buy any more pants because I love to buy weird pants. And then just a bunch of weird pants. So I was like, I can't buy these. [04:13] Not that I was going to get the Ghani ones, but I was on a similar journey to you. This was in Abu Dhabi. This was in December. Okay. [04:20] The Ghani ones, then I have a favorite store here in the city called Pesh, which is sort of like maybe Korean, unclear, in the Lower East Side. [04:31] um that it's like a one size shop so it is a little like a a little bit of a problematic space it's it's it's modern brandy melville it's right okay and they only have most their shoes only go up to like a size eight okay it's for us a petite lady some shoes go bigger anyway they have this pant and i'm gonna i'm gonna send this to you kate to pull up

[04:55] that is a middle ground. Okay. $176. Okay. So, you know, a purchase, but not Ghani 350, 400, whatever they are. And it gives less waitress. [05:09] They have two size categories. Two size categories. Okay. Anyway, they're... Can we pull them out? [05:17] The Ghani ones are great. The Ghani ones are so beautiful. Also, the ones that I... [05:22] originally sent you the dupe for are also beautiful $350 from what were they? [05:27] they were wool, they were wool. Will? [05:30] what's that brand Paloma oh Paloma wall oh my gosh the best gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous um [05:38] Also, I will say just one note on this. [05:41] personally would like a longer skirt that's the thing that's why it looks apron yeah it's like too mini skirt yeah it's okay and then kate pull up my patch one and then we can move on from the pants pants department [05:54] Thanks. [05:54] Oh. [05:56] Nice. 175. We could go today. They're sold out online, but we could go today before we flight. We've got a lot to get into. If I can't fit into those, I'm going to have some feelings about it, and they won't care. They've designed for that experience, only stopping one size. [06:12] Also, I feel I need to address... [06:15] what it sound like um i'm not i'm i'm no longer contagious [06:19] According to... [06:21] my general project manager who is chat gpt um but i do sound like shit and um i apologize because it's kind of gross at first i was like oh kind of hot and now it's been like yeah 10 days and i'm like

[06:33] Not so hot. Yeah. Time to get better. Maybe we should get into like a hot, like a heated room that doesn't have anyone else in it. [06:41] Small, solo heated room. Okay. So we have a fun show coming up. We have two guests that are going to join us. Lindsay Winder from Anchorage and then Caledora from Ostium. [06:53] both who we have a lot of questions for. So we're really excited about that. And then [06:57] Actually, before we get into things, shall we give a quick shout out to our partners here? [07:05] Kate, you let me know, Octant, when we're ready. [07:12] So we love Octon. [07:14] as we love often they are well known in ethereum circles for [07:20] their tireless contribution to the Ethereum ecosystem through research and millions of dollars in grants and public goods funding, [07:26] 2026 is their product era. Octant is now laser focused on vaults. If you tuned into last week's episodes, we had a long conversation about vaults and the interesting stuff they're doing there. Vaults enable orgs and communities to build sustainable funding systems through yield generating products. [07:44] Basically, you... [07:46] Put your capital into these vaults and then you can direct your yield towards your own orgs runway or funnel it to broader ecosystem efforts. It's all fair game with Octon's new institutional grade vaults. Earn, allocate, and grow Ethereum with DeFi. Check out Octon at OctonApp on X. I ran into the team yesterday at DOS. Yes.

[08:12] And... [08:13] Just so lovely. Really lovely people. Really doing the work. They are very thoughtful, smart, [08:19] people and had a great conversation with them about [08:22] work and then fiction. [08:25] books. Oh, any recommendations? Some fantasy stuff. Okay. I have it written down somewhere. [08:32] And anyway. Man, I have not been reading. I need to get back to. You got to get back on it. It's so nice. I love it. You have to like hit the hieroglyphics. Yeah, I've been, I, you know, I run my book club. Yes. And we've, [08:48] read two books recently one that i would recommend the other that pissed me off um one was heart the lover okay [08:55] I would recommend. Great. Easy. The type of book where you're like, you can't put it down, but there's some like really beautiful writing in it. And then the second is like a memoir that's like kind of hitting like New York. Like I'm like seeing it all over the timeline. People are talking about it's called Strangers. It's, um, this woman who's like, um, [09:10] like comes from like a socialite family. Okay. And... [09:15] Anyway, it's about her divorce and basically COVID happens and her husband just one day after 25 years, I'm out. And it's about that. And we'll have the book talk time here on Boys Club Live. But not recommending that one. [09:32] I think is a very, like, you could read it in a sitting, like... [09:39] I was in Mexico City last week for Stripe Commons, and I was on the plane with...

[09:47] Um, [09:48] a few friends who are on the book who are in the book hub who are also working crypto so there was three of us like all reading this book strangers which it was funny and also so many crypto people on this plane which you know i hate brutal and i do have to say [10:01] Just shout out to a friend. [10:04] Who... [10:05] A colleague, not a friend, who was on the plane with me, who did have the seat next to me, who I did not talk to the whole time. [10:13] I was just like, headphones on. I'm not here to do that. I'm not telling you. I'll tell you afterwards. [10:20] But I literally, he sat down and I was like, [10:22] And just like, yeah, not doing that. Anyway, that's a gift. That's a real gift to you. So that's both, I feel. Totally. Both of you want to. And everybody around you. Like nothing's worse than like two chatty Cathy's on a plane at 630 in the morning. I had one coming back from Nashville. That was a lady who was just like really. And you know me. Very hard to. Oh, my gosh. Very hard to. Absolutely. No way you're getting out of that. Very hard to chat with strangers about. [10:45] stuff so it's like what do you do for work and you're like let me show you my podcast we're talking about our totally and i'm like we're talking about my boots i'm like what are we doing here but i guess that's that's humanity and i have to leave space for it but it was very i was very challenged by it yeah so anyway that was anyway thing that your seatmate did strangers um most of us finished the book on the plane so like it is a book you can't put down but i have [11:07] Some thoughts and feelings about the [11:09] whole premise of it so if you'd like to join my book club just dm me on twitter a spin-off uh podcast [11:15] Let's hear it.

[11:17] Of the book? The book is 2.5 to me. Out of five? Out of five. [11:24] Okay, so mid. Yeah, mid book. Okay, should we give a quick shout out to Anchorage? Yes, we should. We have an incredible tape we're about to roll. [11:35] In one moment. [11:39] If you haven't yet seen this, you're in for a treat. [11:44] - See this? This is your cap table. You made it in Google Sheets at midnight. It's got 47 tabs, three conflicting versions, and you're emailing investors one by one, asking for wallet addresses manually in 2026. Why are you working twice as hard? [12:06] Anchorage Digital. Anchorage Digital's full stack token management solution. One dashboard. [12:13] CLIFFS, LOCKUPS, IT AUTOMATES STAKEHOLDER COLLECTION, SO YOU NEVER SEND ANOTHER JUST FOLLOWING UP E-MAIL AGAIN. POST LAUNCH, YOUR TOKENS ARE HELD SAFELY AT ANCHORGE DIGITAL, HOME TO ANCHORGE DIGITAL BANK, THE FIRST FEDERALLY CHARTERED CRYPTO BANK IN THE U.S. AND THEY'RE NOT JUST SITTING THERE. YOU CAN TRADE, DISTRIBUTE, STAKE, AND EARN REWARDS WITHOUT YOUR TOKENS EVER LEAVING CUSTODY, VIA ANCHORGE DIGITAL'S FULL-FULLY FEDERAL. [12:34] fully integrated offerings. And your investors can easily access them through their own portal. If time is money, then make sure you use Anchorage Digital to get hours back. You following me, camera guy? You're not going to need this anymore. Go to anchorage.com or call 1-800-AT-ANCHOR. Don't really call.

[12:49] Thank you. [12:53] I do just have to say, we recorded that two weeks ago here in the studio, and... [12:58] I was just like... [13:01] blown away at the acting that was happening from Kate. I was like literally could never like it was Wes and me and Kate and Wes was just like okay go and Kate was like [13:12] Line, line, line. And I was like, I felt secondhand. [13:19] like stress yeah from it and i was just like man i know she a real one she'll come out and she'll surprise you with her talents many talents uh should we bring our first guest [13:28] up utility player uh lindsey come on in um hi come on down here nice to see you nice to nice to see you hi um you can slide in make yourself comfortable i will say it's a cozy couch it's a cozy couch it's kind of a [13:47] bar back couch okay you seem fine right do i sit like this one no no no like adjust yourself however you feel most comfortable and then we can adjust your mic [13:56] We've had some guests who, unfortunately, their feet are up. You don't have that problem. We're in a good spot. Like a perch. You look great. Okay, Lindsay Winder, Token Vesting Lead at Anchorage Digital. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Great to be here. I'm so excited. Great video, by the way. I just got to say I was watching it again. It was incredible. Thank you. Thank you.

[14:26] Okay, so you were at the Digital Asset Summit yesterday. Digital Asset Summit yesterday. [14:34] DAS or DOS. DAS, DOS. [14:37] as some as some may call it um what was your take [14:41] I love DAS. I went last year and it instantly became one of my favorite top two conferences of the year. Same as last year, I feel like there's so much energy there, which is like what you want to see at a conference. [14:56] It's a completely different group of people than we see on our kind of like global conference circuit. [15:02] So it's a group of people that... [15:05] aren't usually present at those other ones and the energy and excitement and just seeing what people are building. It's, [15:11] So it got me into crypto. But now seeing it on this different kind of level than, you know, six or seven years ago with institutions and just new builders. [15:21] I was incredibly excited being there yesterday. It was great. [15:26] Yeah. It's crazy. Just the scale that it's hit and the seriousness of the people in the room. And I was joking. I was like, man, it's really funny to see a lot of the people that I've been in this industry with for many years, like in their Sunday best. Like I was just like, oh, this is funny. People are like showing up in their suits and in their like blowouts and their blazers. And I was like, oh, wow. Okay. This is a different vibe than like [15:50] I don't know, seeing you in Idlewild, California, like in the forest, like there's like a code switching that has happened, um, that I think is like appropriate and, uh,

[16:00] an appropriate like maturing of the industry that's happened. And then like so many new faces of people who, yeah, are excited to be there and feel like genuinely interested and, um, [16:13] invested in what the future of [16:15] digital assets are going to look like. Yeah. I had multiple people who I was meeting with just walk right past me and they're like, "I've never seen you in a suit before." Yeah. I don't know who you are, what's different about you. You've changed. Yeah, exactly. I was like, "Oh, we've all in a really healthy way, I think collectively sold out a little bit." And I'm like, "It feels kind of good, honestly, to be here." And be like, [16:38] I'm like, we're at like Javits Center. I was like, wow, this is a really different vibe. It's great. You know, I mean, like, [16:44] We've... [16:45] pushed for so many years. I got into crypto in 2017. [16:49] And just seeing how it's progressed, all the things we were talking about with adoption and [16:55] And there's so many different ways adoption could go. Yeah. You know, we push for... [17:00] individuals, there's so many [17:02] ways it could go, but the institutional adoption, which is what you see at DAS, it's here. It's [17:11] We didn't know if that was going to happen for a very long time. And we're very much in the middle of it. So it's all systems go right now. You know, it's great. Exciting. Anything surprising from yesterday or particularly interesting from either panels or conversations that you had? [17:27] Yeah, I mean... [17:29] I think, you know, I caught up with a lot of people that I've known for years and seen the kind of progression they've taken, whether it's.

[17:35] in what they're building, what direction that they're headed, um, [17:39] And the surprising thing was like you mentioned the suits, but like everyone is kind of moving in this direction. Yeah. Right. Right. [17:46] Because as your audience changes and as it matures, whether you're building a protocol or a service or product, [17:54] you need to adapt to that. And so it was a good surprise. Yeah. But just to see all of my old friends still here, still building, [18:03] Just with, you know, different clothes sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, so you got into crypto in 2017. [18:10] Tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this industry and... [18:14] my background, um, [18:16] I started, I moved to New York 14 years ago as a speech pathologist. Oh, wow. Not crypto. [18:23] And I started building technology companies in healthcare and, [18:27] Around 2017, one of my good friends, we started just exploring crypto building companies. [18:34] And, [18:35] you know, [18:36] There's this thing we saw in 2017 where it almost felt like it could be an inventor. [18:41] You could literally just write code and millions of people could access and you could build these incredibly complex, important tools. [18:49] And that sucked us in. And we just said, we want to build in this space. [18:54] And so over the next, you know, several years, we just... [18:57] Everyone has this resonant frequency. No matter what you want to do, you always just end up going towards something. It's how you're wired. We always like working with people, with builders. My friend and I, who started the company,

[19:11] We always just, we were fascinated by people. [19:14] startups building in crypto. [19:16] Just like the humans, the operations, the thing that keeps them up at three in the morning, like... [19:21] No matter what I wanted to do, I always just came back to wanting to fix that stuff. And it's why we got into token investing, which may sound like a boring thing, but if you're running a company, it's a very important thing. [19:32] And for the last several years, you know, we've really pushed and [19:36] and develop these systems for these builders and, um, [19:39] Last year, we were acquired by Anchorage. [19:42] Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, it was great. And we got the opportunity with Anchorage to do those [19:49] The same things we wanted to do, but just on a bigger scale with more resources and the incredible team at Anchorage just. [19:55] all of their weight pushing forward because, um, [19:58] they, as we found, you know, they're as obsessed with protocols as we were, probably even more, to be honest with you. And to get to join that team and rise the opportunity of just working with builders, [20:11] in this new era that we talk about with TAS. It's been incredible. Okay. So that was Hedgie. You were running Hedgie, which was sort of like a Carta, [20:21] You can think of it as sort of like a Carta for on-chain teams. So token management, vesting, lockups. You have a thesis that we were talking about yesterday that token management is risk management. [20:32] Can you tell me a little bit more about that? [20:34] Yeah, I mean... [20:35] Thank you. [20:36] you know, [20:37] So my co-founder, former co-founder, now he's at Anchorage on the protocols team. He was a treasury manager at WeWork for five years. His job was literally like risk management.

[20:47] On a global scale. Uh-huh. [20:48] And he, you know, I ripped him off when I said that's his saying. He's the one who thinks the things I just get to say them. [20:55] But his whole kind of thesis has always been, [21:00] your job when you're running a company's risk management. And in crypto, [21:05] you have all the inherent risks of running a startup, right? You have just running a startup is inherently risky. It's a high failure thing. You're pushing on the frontier of something new. [21:15] And then when you introduce what most companies in crypto are building, which are protocols, that's additional risk. You have to worry about that's a core product you're offering. [21:25] And so you're operating on these risky kind of endeavors, which are just part of the game. [21:30] But the thing you don't want to do is introduce risk you don't need to take, right? [21:36] You shouldn't do that. [21:37] And so when we talk about token management is risk management. [21:42] It's about just offsetting risk as much as possible. [21:46] And it's why when we joined Anchorage, you know, the approach we took was how do we use Anchorage, by the way, which which we all know is a qualified custodian, one of many things that they are. They're more. [21:57] think of that as like a base and then a bunch of services wrapped around that focused on protocols, investors, everyone, right? But how could we leverage the qualified custody layer, the product that [22:10] secures your tokens and keeps them safe. How could we use that in token management so that [22:15] All these builders we love and we work with, they're not waking up at three in the morning.

[22:19] wondering if 40% of their supply is safe. How could we just take that off their plate? [22:25] And so when I say token management is risk management, that's what I mean. It's about not taking risks when you don't have to, the things that you don't have to take risks on. [22:34] That's nice. [22:36] Okay, this is kind of a question that's... [22:40] like a little bit of a tangent but one thing that they were talking about yesterday um at the conference was and i think i've i've [22:47] personally been seeing this in the industry is just like, sort of like the divorce between revenue and token price. [22:54] And like how much they're, [22:58] Over the last, I don't know, let's call it. [23:00] especially around altcoins in the last year, like some of these companies are actually doing quite well and they are, [23:06] having very consistent revenue. Their businesses are actually more foundationally secure than they maybe were two years ago. But that doesn't seem to be like affecting the price of the token. And this kind of being like an industry wide phenomenon that's happening. And I think, [23:23] I, you have so much exposure, I feel like to many people. [23:28] startups that have launch tokens, that are thinking about that. I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that. If you're seeing that as well, if that feels like a [23:36] a thesis that you agree with. [23:39] And if so, if you have thoughts around that. Yeah, I have thoughts. I don't know if they're good thoughts, but, you know, [23:45] I think if you look at crypto over the last six years, there's kind of... [23:48] a pattern you can see

[23:50] Right now, I think we may be in a transitory state where how assets or prices changed. If you look back [23:57] four or five years ago, perhaps. [23:59] there weren't as many tokens as there are now. There wasn't a pump.fun or something where you could just produce tokens [24:05] a token and tokens are, [24:09] basically all fighting for attention and liquidity. Right. And so in the industry, um, [24:15] There are so many more assets fighting for attention. [24:18] Yeah. Right? Where... [24:19] you're kind of [24:21] core structure and everything you can say, like, say this token should be worth a lot more because it's a great business. [24:28] We just haven't transitioned perhaps away from a speculative market that's just going off attention and vibes. [24:34] to one based on fundamentals. I will say it's what I like about the Digital Asset Summit, though, is that that's the institutional audience. Yeah. And they very much so care about fundamentals. [24:46] And so I think we may just be in a bit of like a paradigm shift at the moment. [24:51] I'm a terrible trader for one. So first, like, well, you, you're preaching to the choir on that one. So we buy high sell out. So yeah, that's kind of our thesis. I'm the person if I ever talk about something, it's the sell signal. No, 100% same. So, you know, I'll just say like, I think how we price assets. [25:12] is changing. And I think the institutional audience does care about fundamentals and it might just take time to think about. [25:20] how the institutional audience works

[25:23] gets exposure to those assets in a way where the fundamentals do matter. Yeah. So you think that the catalyst for when and why that would change is because there'll be some institutional recognition and adoption of those tokens that are around the businesses, the organizations that have strong businesses, strong business models? Yeah, I do. I heard that a lot yesterday where people are looking at like, [25:46] business models. [25:47] Whether it's a protocol, you know, I mean, no, genuinely, I feel like that's also with startups. You know, if you look 15, 20 years ago, and Twitter, it was just about attention and getting people on and growth, right? Yeah. And then it very much shifted. [26:05] And I think we might be at that stage and that's healthy. Yeah, totally. Because at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's what you build and what value does it have to the world? Right. Yeah. And I think. [26:17] Having that frame will ultimately drive, whether it's tokenomics or just core principles of what you're building, [26:25] to go towards that direction. [26:27] which I think is net positive for everything. Yeah. [26:31] Yeah, totally. Okay, a little pivot here, but AI agents. Oh, yeah. Is there any, what's the overlap between that space and treasury management or token management? [26:42] If any, nothing now, nothing now. It shouldn't be. I mean, I, I mess with Claude and, and my old Claude bought her open claw now. Yeah. Um, um, [26:52] And, [26:53] it's magic when you play with these things, right? Yeah. You know, building with AI, autonomous agents,

[27:00] But they like hallucinate. You can't trust them is the big thing. Yeah. And when I say token management is risk management. Totally. Having an AI agent manage your treasury is probably one of the riskiest things you can do now. [27:13] I don't know if that will always be the case. [27:17] But, you know, I do see... [27:20] Thank you. [27:20] agents playing a very important part in crypto right not in treasury management but just with the protocols like one of the things is i get to see everything that's like coming out right because i work with a lot of protocols as they're preparing to launch and then [27:34] I speak with them every week after they've launched and just see what, what everyone's building. [27:39] And it's definitely taken the attention of crypto. [27:42] protocols that aren't building AI. They want to make sure these agents can get exposure to their protocols. And so there's just a certain set of tools and things you need to do for protocol management. [27:54] to allow agents to interact with what you're doing. And I see a lot of that happening now across the board. Interesting. Is like a kind of core thesis some people have is that agents will represent the majority of transactions. And if you think about it, it kind of makes sense going to Uniswap and clicking. [28:12] Swap. [28:13] Versus having an agent that can do all that for you, but also 24-7 all the time, exactly how you want. [28:21] It's kind of what crypto was built for. Yeah. Anyways. So I think they're very complimentary. [28:26] But I think we have a lot of work to build on like, [28:28] Do I trust this agent with my retirement account? Do I trust it with my treasury?

[28:33] I'll throw like a hundred bucks in a wallet and let it rip. [28:36] I expect all of it. [28:38] Go to zero. Yeah. Just have fun. Yeah. But I would not trust it with a treasury. Yeah. [28:45] It'd be great if you could, but for now, I think there's a lot of things around like [28:50] wallet security, [28:52] just everything that you need to really build up. [28:55] Yeah. Yeah. OK, can we talk a little bit about some cap table red flags that you have seen? [29:01] Cap table red flags? Yeah. Like... [29:05] So this goes back maybe to like... [29:07] when I was at Hedgie and you're raising and things on your cap table. I mean, [29:13] this is like a whole conversation. I'll come back for this one, but you know, I mean, if you're, I think when I speak with founders, everyone kind of knows the same thing. You want people on your cap table that you trust that have your best interests on, uh, at heart. And, [29:29] You know, the job of an investor is just to give you money, trust you and let you build something. Right. Right. [29:35] Um, [29:36] When you can get more than that, it's when an investor will actually be active. [29:41] So I don't know if I have any like red flags. Like there's not like Lindsay's five things that are red flags for investors. But, you know, when you raise, you make mistakes of – [29:52] of [29:52] you are worried about the due diligence on you and you're not doing enough due diligence on, is this going to be a partner? I want to, [29:59] work with for the next three years. We weren't in that position. Luckily, we had great mentors, great investors from day one.

[30:07] I've had lots of friends at their companies who they've, [30:10] spend way too much of their time dealing with [30:12] just unnecessary headaches. Yeah. So you're, you have this interesting perspective, which you spoke to earlier about just being able to see across a lot of different teams that are launching across the industry. Yeah. What's the, [30:26] like vibe, appetite, [30:28] energy around launching tokens right now. [30:31] So busy. [30:32] Great. Really? It's insane. Wow. I was so busy this morning before I came in here. I was up to like one last night. [30:40] I feel like I've been like that for the last, like... [30:43] four weeks, 12 weeks. Yeah. I mean, Anchorage is in a very great position because they focus on protocols from like [30:50] a year before they launch, sometimes earlier to four years after. [30:55] And one of the great parts of just [30:57] being on the token vesting teams. I just build product and talk to users. Anchorage, their whole system just [31:05] takes care of every part outside of that for these protocols. [31:09] But there are so many protocols launching, like... [31:12] Again, like when you go on Twitter or you go to like some conference and everyone's just down about it. Yeah. They don't see the like the inside baseball of like. [31:21] the actual energy companies. [31:23] And it's tremendous. It's, it's, [31:26] 10 minutes before I got here, I was just on calls helping people launch today. After I leave here, I'm doing the same thing and I'm going to be doing that [31:34] You know, until my eyes fall out in a year from now.

[31:37] I think it's a very... [31:40] good moment that we're in. That's such a fun job. It's awesome. I just talk to people and build stuff. Yeah. Do you have any [31:50] uh, particular products that you have had a really fun time working with or that you products that you, [31:56] personally use that you love? Yeah. A lot of them. I actually don't know which ones are public, so I don't know which ones I can say. That makes sense. Yeah, totally. [32:04] first discretion. Um, [32:07] I'm very fortunate, though, because... [32:10] for the last four years that's all i've done is work with other builders yeah all i see and and [32:15] It's the thing I like the most. It's just seeing what other people are doing. I always give too much advice. I always give people product advice because I build products and jam with founders on this stuff. [32:27] Um, there are a lot of cool products coming out. [32:30] right now that are not just forks of something that existed three or four years ago. I'm talking like new primitives, products that are very like cutting edge and frontier. Yes, institutional products. [32:43] Yes, privacy, which are the things we all know. [32:46] There's a lot of like... [32:48] I think we'll see a phase two of prediction markets. [32:52] We think of prediction markets as like Cal Sheet Poly market, but there are so many people building... [32:58] new things that are like the layers beyond that. I think, you know, six months we'll be talking about that. [33:05] Yeah, I mean... [33:07] It's all I do is like just see awesome things people build.

[33:11] and make sure I help them set up their token allocations for everyone. Okay, so institutional prediction markets. Did you sit in on the prediction market panel yesterday? I didn't. Okay. I'll talk about that later. Any hazards? Yeah. Hot takes? Yeah, what's up? I mean, it was – [33:30] It was interesting. I mean, I think that... [33:34] There were sort of like three, I think, like main takeaways from the panel. And it was a few investors who were investing in prediction markets. Um... [33:44] I think John Wang is his name. He's like the Cal sheet crypto guy. Um, and then one other guy, I am not remembering who he was. Um, [33:52] So yeah, mantle on prediction market. But it was... [33:57] One thing they talked about was... [34:00] Basically, like, how... [34:03] uh, [34:04] about valuations of these prediction markets, like whether they're appropriate, whether they're just like inflated right now, and where there's like room. There's so much volume happening on these right now. Like where's there actual where's there actual room for them to continue to grow? And one of the things that was interesting to me was that like it's really regional right now. It's very much like a few key countries that are actively using prediction markets and that there is an opportunity for, [34:32] other like smaller teams and smaller startups that are like in Brazil or, you know, in very specific regions to build for, you know,

[34:42] their people, the things that that region cares about. And that's like untouched at this point. So that was one thing they talked about. And then let me see, I have some notes around it, because I felt like it was... [34:57] um, [34:58] Oh, they talked a lot about like, look, what are the moats right now? And a big [35:03] thing was like liquidity and trust. And that like... [35:07] you, like, to bootstrap either of those things is, like, nearly impossible. So new players, like, how do they solve for that? And then... [35:17] starting with like a niche and like going really deep into one thing and, um, garnering like attention for that very specific thing. And then, and then building from there. And then the last thing that, um, [35:33] Thank you. [35:33] they talked about, which... [35:36] I have like mixed feelings on is that it's like, [35:39] Um, [35:40] prediction markets as reshaping what media and information and data and financial markets. That's sort of how [35:49] Um, [35:51] these investors are justifying the valuation of at least Polymerkin and Kalshi at this point, is that it's not just a betting platform. It's new media or it's new social or it's shaping a geopolitical landscape. There's these really, really big stories that they can tell around what [36:08] they actually are, which I feel like... [36:12] Remains to be seen. Remains to be seen. Yeah. Yeah. So, but really interesting. And like...

[36:20] A funny John Wang showed up in sweatpants, which I was just like, totally my dude. I almost showed up in sweatpants today. Until I watched the video and realized you showed below the head. [36:33] So yeah, anyway, I was... [36:35] It was interesting to hear that. [36:37] A lot of the people on the panel felt there was a lot more room for new types of prediction markets where I don't know that I had that view going into that panel. [36:44] Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think, um, [36:48] you talk about like, um, [36:50] financial institutions having interest in them. And it's interesting because, [36:54] forever. [36:55] You know, if someone says like the Fed's going to raise or cut rates, you would buy calls or puts and you'd basically be taking a position on an event. Right. With like options or something. [37:06] And with prediction markets in those spaces, it lets you actually go before the [37:11] buying calls or puts on the outcome of the event and actually, you know, [37:14] place speculation on the event itself. [37:17] So many ways like they're tied together and it's actually filling a gap. People were taking action on. [37:22] but there was no mechanism to take action on. They could only take action on the outcome. And I think it's interesting when you put it in that perspective of it actually is an actual new financial instrument for many of these people. Interesting. Oh, one other thing that I thought was really interesting was, [37:37] Um, [37:38] that [37:40] Talking about... [37:42] bots and sort of like trading bots specifically, and that it doesn't seem yet that...

[37:50] there has been an ability to, in like a mass way for people, [37:56] Individuals to... [37:57] to train their bots to arbitrage against both of the platforms. And pretty unanimously, they were like, that day is coming. And that actually presents a much... [38:07] more opportunity that there will be like more trading volume, more platforms because basically building for that use case. And [38:16] Yeah, and sort of talked about how you saw that initially, not with bots, but just with user behavior. [38:22] doing that with like sports books when they first, when that like sports book apps first started, that was like such a big thing that so many people were [38:31] were doing. And so that was kind of interesting seeing that as an opportunity as opposed to [38:36] A feature, not a bug. Like a cross-platform arbitrage? Yeah, exactly. [38:41] So many people talk about that on Twitter. Like you see, like, here's the script to do it. And the truth is anyone who's doing that is not talking about it. [38:50] Totally. Totally. If you figure that out, yeah, you're not telling anyone. For sure. So when I see all this stuff, I'm like, oh, I could be doing arbitrage on some random thing I don't know. And my claw bot goes schizo every like, you know, five minutes. [39:05] But in reality, people probably are pulling it off. But they're just not talking. There's no incentive to. Okay, last question here. You have some thoughts on communities and DAOs and cap tables, I believe? I heard through the grapevine. Yeah, sure. I could talk about that. Okay, I'd love to hear. I feel like, I don't know, we have some scar tissue around the whole, the DAO of it all. Everyone does, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. What are the thoughts?

[39:35] I could say that [39:37] you or the audience doesn't already know, right? I mean, we've all been through it. [39:41] Trauma bonded. Trauma bonded, yeah. I think there's so much potential and you see a lot of the service providers for DAOs recently shutting down as well. [39:51] And I see... [39:54] DAO is still having a place for many protocols that are launching, but not just unanimously across the board. I think it's much more of a conscious decision now than... [40:03] you're launching a token, you're launching a DAO, which was definitely what it was. Everything's going to be a DAO, it's not the case. I think you are seeing companies launch more in the US. [40:14] starting to come. Yeah. And launch without DAOs. And, you know, [40:19] Like the truth is like you don't need a Tao for everything. [40:22] Right? And I think a lot of star tissue comes from people launching DAOs when they didn't need to have a DAO. [40:29] It can be very useful though. Like I'm not saying... [40:32] DAOs are terrible for everything because they are actually very useful for a very specific thing. But when you just have a DAO and it's still like... [40:42] two people who were like, we're going to do this. [40:46] The Dow is just either for show or it's just like... [40:50] I [40:50] a forum where people just, you know, doubt doubt chats, like maybe just go crazy in there. Right. Have you dealt with this? Yeah. Maybe really. Um, I also, uh, I do think though, what could be interesting is a doubt of agents like that. I'm like, yeah, okay. That does seem like it's autonomous in a way that our, our doubt certainly never was. So I could see a future where it totally has a new life. Um,

[41:17] as a container for effort. [41:20] for building value, but [41:23] Yeah, I don't. [41:24] It's just a decision-making construct, right? How are we going to make decisions? Yeah. [41:31] And the actual origin of doubt was just protocol level of you have this many people, this many assets, and they decide this, it happens. Yeah. But then it became... [41:40] People getting roles and elected. Yeah. [41:44] And that still has a place for some organizations, but not like it. [41:48] you know, was thought to be. Not in the way that we thought. Yeah. Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. So nice to chat with you. Absolutely. See you later. See you later. [41:58] *cough* [41:59] Okay. [42:03] so fun really fun stuff man dow dow too dumb to dow i thought about that the other day first ever podcast episode too dumb to dow and it remains true i kind of want to like go back and give it a listen [42:17] Oh, you did. What was it like? It was fun. [42:22] Oh, we were so... [42:24] We knew so little. We weren't jaded yet. Oh, man. Okay. [42:31] So we're going to chat for a little bit. You, me. [42:34] um [42:35] And okay, tell me what's going on with AI Love Island. Take care. Okay, AI Love Island. Okay, this is kind of a meaty story. There's many parts to it. [42:46] There's a lot of, it's got some legs. Okay. I'm going to begin.

[42:53] Okay. Kate's giving me notes. Okay. I'm going to start by saying, [42:59] my first exposure to AI fruit. [43:02] Where were we again? I was on Twitter. [43:06] As one does. As all video. And it was... [43:11] The premise of the video is sort of like a hyper-sexualized [43:15] back and forth between a strawberry [43:18] who's leaving an eggplant's home, presumably post-cortical, and goes back to her partner who's another strawberry. She gets pregnant. The male strawberry is very excited. They have the baby. [43:32] The fruit baby. Uh-huh. [43:34] It's a small eggplant. [43:36] he freaked out and sues yeah he's like and she's like i'll never do it again she's crying whatever it's this whole thing yeah and the quote tweet was like i can't remember exactly what it was but it was something along the lines of like the shit men send to each other in the group chat or something like that um and i was like [43:52] First of all, what is this slop? And second of all, why am I watching it to the end? Like, I'm like, I need to know what happens between these strawberries. So that was my first exposure to it. Turns out there is, it's like a whole phenomenon that's happening around like what sort of looks like a... [44:10] like Pixar style, like Timu Pixar. Um, [44:16] that's like taking over Tik TOK and they're obviously AI generated, um, videos and, um,

[44:24] Thank you. [44:25] We're going to play one. But wait, wait, let me just say what then developed... [44:29] you [44:30] is a whole series, Love Island Fruit, AI Fruit. [44:35] So we'll say we'll say welcome to fruit love island where eight single fruits are about to flirt fights and trust things get messy fast. [44:44] Okay, this villa is insane. I'm not leaving here single. I just hope the guys are hot. [44:50] I'm here to have fun and probably break a few hearts. Rose said the quiet part out loud. I just hope the girls like nice guys. Okay, the banana guy is definitely my type. [44:59] Wait. [45:01] see or unable to see that it's [45:06] Hyper sexual fruit. [45:10] Looks maxing fruit in like scantily clad. [45:16] Looks like some sort of beachy setting. The male fruit have their... The male... [45:22] presenting fruit have their shirts open um and the girls are in little outfits the girls are very like love if you've never seen love island and you've never seen any of these videos you can just skip this whole segment because it's it's not for you um [45:40] Yeah, and like millions and millions and millions and millions of views, like unprecedented. And so people are watching this. I mean, it's storytelling. It's storytelling, I think. So there was one account, I think it was called Fruity AI, that had the producers of the Love Island fruit thing. I think it was like the fastest growing TikTok account.

[46:01] to date and it has now since been removed from the platform i think there's been a cultural divide [46:09] of people. [46:10] Some people who are very, very upset by AI content, who are continuously reporting it, and... [46:18] obviously a bunch of people who are loving it and watching it. And it seems to be that there's platform, [46:24] Like, [46:25] um, drama around it. Um, so, uh, [46:29] uh [46:30] That's essentially the story. The newsletter After School by Casey Lewis is great. And she did a little like excerpt about it that I highly recommend. And then also Zara Larson. [46:47] uh-huh started talking about it uh-huh people got really mad at her pop star Sarah Larson um [46:53] Why do people get mad? Because they were like, how could you be promoting AI content? Oh, she was pro. She was pro. She was into it. She was like, I'm watching my show. My show's on. And so, yeah, I think there's something about it that is... [47:07] We were talking about it before we began here. And there's something like... [47:13] adjacent to like the anime porn stuff henty hentai hentai um [47:19] And, you know, [47:21] that like takes, like, [47:23] swaps platforms and like gains momentum on other platforms and then you kind of get like you get locked into the algorithm around it like if you watch one hentai thing then like i guess your whole feed becomes that yeah and it's similar where it's like it's hyper sexualized but it's not people and yeah

[47:42] It also seems like it's somewhat of a Rorschach test or whatever, like that thing where you show people and it's like you can use the Rorschach test. There it is. [47:55] You see it. You show people the Fruit Love Island. Yes. They're either going to react. I hate AI videos. This is slop or whoa. Like I need to watch everything. Yeah. Totally. Interesting. That's the story. Thanks for thanks for filling in anytime. Oh, there's one other element to it that the creator of I believe the Fruit AI, the original podcast. [48:18] one that got taken down, started posting really explicit, quite mean comments on, I believe, their Instagram. And I think the quote was... [48:31] Thank you. [48:31] We, we basically something along the lines of like, you guys aren't going to have any water left. Like, [48:38] Saying like, I'm going to go so hard on creating these videos. So like the environmental impact of creating these videos was like brought into the conversation all of a sudden. And I was just like, where are we in the world right now? Anyway, on that note, actually, we could talk about the Sora shutdown news, which hit... [48:56] Yesterday, breaking news. Breaking. 36 hours later, breaking. Yeah, 48 hours later, Sora. So for those who don't know, Sora was OpenAI's [49:07] AI video generation platform slash social network is kind of how they were positioning it. Mm-hmm.

[49:14] You would use Sora presumably to make these videos that you're – Yeah, yeah. [49:19] I'm not making these videos. You're not making the videos. Fruity AI is making this video. Fruity AI would be perhaps using Sora, but maybe – It's usually Sora Larson. Or there's other ones, but it was a really big, splashy launch that OpenAI did when it first came out. [49:33] And they've really been pushing it. They, um, [49:37] had a big, huge investment from Disney, $1 billion. December 2025, that was announced, a three-year license. And basically the plan there was, hey, we are Disney. We have all this incredible IP. We're going to license 200 of our most famous, iconic IP characters ever. [49:58] to uh sora so that you can generate all this stuff within sora make your own videos and that was that happened in december i remember when we covered it and it was a big deal everyone was freaking out um it's now march that deal is dead they were you can just do things you could just kill a billion dollar deal honestly that was that was news to me i didn't know that was possible um and disney was uh there's a quote somewhere that they were like [50:23] surprised, somewhat surprised by this announcement. They were like... OpenAI was surprised or Disney was surprised? Disney was surprised. And basically what's going on or the speculation is that OpenAI is preparing for a Q4 IPO. [50:41] And they are really cutting some categories that aren't really working. Yeah, they're cutting some categories that aren't working and they're streamlining. They basically feel like.

[50:52] I don't know if they feel like this, but certainly... Feelings check in with everybody. People feel like Antropics eating their lunch. And... [50:59] have been really streamlined around like coding and enterprise and Anthropoc has had like [51:06] I found a huge success by just like focusing in that lane. So Anthropoc doesn't do any image generation or any video. And so they've been very focused and have had a lot of success as a result. And opening eye, [51:19] have not have been sort of like, [51:22] trying lots of things, including Sora, and are sort of seeing this momentum and this traction. I mean, like, we actually, maybe we need to kind of do some more things. So that's the speculation. But can I tell you a funny feeling that's been coming up for me recently around the Anthropic OpenAI platform? [51:38] war um i feel like a week anytime i'm seeing like anthropic wind somewhere yeah [51:44] I have like a weird satisfaction. Uh-huh. [51:48] And like... [51:49] It is quite pointed at not wanting Sam Altman to win. I think a lot of people feel that way. I think a lot of people feel that way. But like, I think that that is true. But then the next thought that comes to me is like, [52:01] There is somewhere in my being. [52:03] where I'm holding [52:05] some [52:06] disdain for sam altman and i'm like what a fucking waste of time perhaps an opportunity for some shadow work i know for real i'm just like what like when it comes up a little jealousy of sam altman maybe it's like maybe i'm just jealous of that little spink um i don't know yeah i think he's evil i think

[52:26] I think he's evil. I think that's what it comes from. I think people have a... I think he's hard to trust. Yeah. I don't know. Anyway, some... [52:35] Something to examine. Yes, something to examine. For sure. Well... [52:40] The Mad Men elevator room, for sure. Not thinking about me at all. So, yeah, that's what's going on with Sora. The really, I mean, there were some stats that were released around the usage and given all the. [52:57] press launch this billion dollar investment like it really doesn't justify it they had [53:02] um in-app purchases generated about two million dollars total oh my god um so and and people were like just making all this making all these videos and like using a ton of compute for the stupidest shit that you could think of and the unit economics of like how much that compute cost open ai versus how much they were getting how much water totally just like pouring up didn't make any sense so okay wait yeah another thing on that um [53:31] Also, I remember Nikita... [53:35] a few weeks ago covering that he said that [53:40] most [53:41] all of the fake war videos that were being populated onto X. Yeah. The metadata of them came from Sora. Yeah. So I think not only like bad unit economics, additionally, like miss, like, like,

[53:56] rampant misinformation misinformation also i was going through i do have one sora clip that i want to show that is wholesome but [54:04] And many were, I was going through and like looking for clips to pull for the segment and just very racist. Incredibly. Very problematic. I can't, I can't use that. [54:14] Oh, I can. I'm sorry, Eva. I can use this. [54:19] And yeah, just a dark place. But Kate, can we roll tape on the one kind of... [54:27] Funny one. [54:38] And then cat videos. Like genuinely, that's what's up. [54:44] Okay. Okay. The three things. It's war videos, misinformation, racist stuff, and then cat videos. Like all of the... Like the one with the cat with the gun, like the ring video. Anyway. [54:56] That's Laura. [54:58] Okay. [55:00] Should I talk about... [55:03] I already talked about my Digital Asset Summit. [55:07] takeaways um i could talk about my ai psychosis and just like a quick check in there [55:12] So great. Can I just tell you, I have been talking with my therapist about your AI psychosis. Yeah, like I should bill you. Honestly, I'm going to Venmo charge you for like. [55:24] What she's what she say about it.

[55:31] Man, my sweet therapist. I love her so much. I bring so many bizarre... She's offline. This woman is offline. Yeah. And I bring so much bizarre internet stuff to her. She's like... [55:41] um i mean she's she's redirecting she's she's she's not psychoanalyzing you totally she's more saying like you know maybe uh what do you think about that like you're talking about how dina feels about it like what do you think about it so that's kind of more been the conversation and then usually i'm just like i don't want to talk about this anymore i don't want to talk about it um so anyway let's get it um yeah okay so a couple things um fully still full-blown ai psychosis over [56:11] has spread into my whole house as well. And so... [56:16] Oscar is ripping... [56:19] now, um, Minecraft mods. He's a YouTube star. On Cloud Code. Can we drop the link? I mean, you might not want that. Oh, we can maybe drop the link. Um, I don't, I don't mind it from a privacy perspective. It's just, it's probably boring for people to know him, but it's, um, [56:34] He is... [56:36] Uh, he, he was like, um, mom, I need, um, pro. [56:43] He's what? He was like, I need the... Oh, mom, I need pro. Yeah, I need pro. Yeah. So... [56:49] That was a conversation. We had to work through that. How did you navigate that? Were you like allowance? What's the deal? I'm like, I will... [57:00] pay for pro you're like i'm gonna content farm you and i'm gonna push to youtube the voice club newsletter you can make it up in uh youtube uh subscriptions now i was like if you're creating stuff and if it's like you're using it that's yeah we we have this distinction or i try to make this distinction around creation versus consumption with the kids and like trying as much as we can to be in a creation mode versus a consumption mode yeah and so i do think that

[57:30] around it and you're in code, then [57:32] that's fine if you're just using it to try and cheat on your homework, which is what I found in his chat history at one point. He had a photo. Okay. I do just have to say – [57:42] You review his chat. I do. GTPT. I review his chat history. Okay. [57:48] Um, [57:49] And he knows that. Yes. Yes. It's not, I'm not reading his journal. You're not reading his journal. Yeah. Yeah. Which I definitely had a parent who like, [57:58] went through my trash oh yeah for real yeah yeah yeah yeah so when you told me that you saw that i i had like a and then you were like no no no he he knows he knows um we talked about it and [58:12] The picture of him holding up his homework. What was the prompt? It was like, hey, can you help me with this or something? And it was... [58:21] Yeah, him. He had opened up photo booths, you know, photo booths. And he had took a photo with photo booths, holding it up. [58:30] What's so funny is why did he need to be in the shop? I don't know. And then he dragged it in to the chat and said, help me with this. Hey, work smarter or harder, you know? Totally. It gave him every single answer. Okay. And then he wrote it in. But did he have to show his work? [58:46] Uh, yeah, well, I think. [58:49] Was it like... [58:49] It was like you fill it in. It wasn't. It was nine. Like it's there's not a lot of showing of the work. [58:56] But so anyway, that was a conversation. That was an opportunity to have a conversation about like, this is what we don't do with AI. Right. And he understands that now. And it was actually good to have an example of like, and this is why we do like, hey, I'm just gonna pull this up quickly. Totally. Another one was.

[59:14] Um, oh. [59:16] it it was him like flexing oh my god i love this one i love this one he's like flexing and he's like is this strong and like i know i love it but i also like we had a little conversation about that too um anyway so we're kind of like through that phase now okay here's clav no um no never and and that's actually the other thing about it is that like [59:41] No social media for him, like honestly, ever, like in terms of where I'm thinking about his Internet use and AI and all these things and like this world that we're in and online all the time. [59:49] Like social media feels... [59:52] And [59:53] no hard pass never as long as possible basically yeah like and also just what you the guy the looks maxers the all that stuff like no and and i also think like the [1:00:05] And maybe this is less so with boys, but like the pressures around social media and young people and young women and body issues, like all that gets so I'm just like never know. [1:00:14] You can play with your friends when you see them in person. Yeah, yeah. Um... [1:00:18] And phone, like, also, that's kind of rafting with that, but... [1:00:22] I don't know, him making Minecraft mods on Cloud Code doesn't feel... [1:00:27] When I'm like trying to think about what the risks are and, [1:00:30] Thank you. [1:00:31] Yeah, just like what could be the downsides of something like that. It feels... [1:00:37] kind of a good thing. So I'm just letting him say yes to pro. [1:00:42] Swipe my credit card. We're going to try for a month. I didn't pay for a year in advance. And we're going to see how it goes. But

[1:00:47] He's... [1:00:49] Yeah, really into it. And he's making – he made a YouTube video about his – [1:00:54] You put it in the chat? I think he ended the YouTube video by saying... [1:00:59] Something like, I hope you like it. I hope you like this video or something. That's it? That's it. I hope you like it. It's something like that. It was so, I loved it. [1:01:09] It's so good. So anyway, that's us. But there was this really funny tweet that I wanted to share from Peter Steinberger, who is the guy, the open call guy. [1:01:20] That is so funny. So the tweet says this or Peter saying this guy emailed me for asking this guy email me asking for a token session refund because his claw made mistakes. And it's a screenshot of presumably OpenAI or a chatbot emailing him. That's basically saying that, like, [1:01:37] You're... [1:01:38] your agent, [1:01:40] Like my agent like messed up so many times and was wrong and fabricated data and like made wrong calculations. And like he wants to take a concession refund, which is obviously entirely misguided and not possible in any way. But very funny how the forms of AI psychosis really how they're showing up. Yeah, how they show up. One. [1:02:00] tweet from Ted that I wanted to bring in the AI psychosis segment. She, our friend Ted posted this yesterday, a few weeks ago, someone called work without AI. [1:02:11] trad work and I can't stop thinking about it. Did some numbers. Did some numbers. So,

[1:02:18] that's something to consider. And, um, [1:02:21] really funny stuff happening. Should I talk about, um, [1:02:26] Surveillance pricing? [1:02:28] Sure. Okay. So our lovely Ava on the team flagged this story, put this story on my desk yesterday. It's a Business Insider article that is... [1:02:42] Basically, the... [1:02:44] Oh, wait, this guy commented here. I'm just going to pull this up on the screen really quickly. [1:02:48] This is right at my kid's alley. I'm building an in-game agent from Minecraft that teaches my kid the Python programming language to automate crafting and building one. [1:02:55] Love it. I love that. Thomas, that's awesome. Thomas, shout out. Thanks for commenting that. Sorry, keep going. I know. Basically, just there is this Business Insider article that talks about... [1:03:11] So basically what they found and what they did is that you... [1:03:17] that certain platforms are charging different amounts based on, [1:03:23] like a personality categorization of the person who is ordering. Okay. So they started with... [1:03:31] The two examples that they use the most are Uber Eats. [1:03:34] and Instacart. Okay. And basically depending on... [1:03:40] Um, [1:03:41] Like, [1:03:43] Whether you're paying with an Amex Platinum, whether you're... Illegal, certainly. Illegal is what it is. Illegal, yeah. But like the rules, especially in New York State, are kind of like they can be skirted around. Okay. You can like... There's a way around it basically. Okay. But it is this term that they're calling like personalized algorithm pricing or surveillance pricing is how they're called it.

[1:04:10] talking about it. [1:04:12] And yeah, if you live in an affluent suburb or like, yeah. And basically the article... [1:04:21] Boo. [1:04:22] goes on to sort of analyze how to happen. They, they did it in office where it was like they all ordered Big Macs and it was like, [1:04:29] The price difference at this point is nominal. It's like 25 cents or 45 cents or whatever. So it's not... It's a slippery slope. It's a slippery slope. And the price... [1:04:39] For Uber Eats, the price of the Big Mac at least was like, the price of the Big Mac is the price of the Big Mac. It's the service fees and the Uber Eats fees or whatever on top of it is where you're getting the differentiation. That was for Uber Eats. [1:04:51] For Instacart, it was like different prices for different products and like everything. And they were sort of found out and then like... [1:04:57] That got... [1:04:59] unraveled and they were like we'll never do this again kind of thing. [1:05:03] And [1:05:04] Basically, I... [1:05:05] in this article, they're like, it's not that big of a deal for this right now. But it's like, [1:05:11] extrapolating that out to like your airline, your hotel, your, like all of these things that then based on where you live, based on how you're paying all, all of these different, um, okay. [1:05:22] classifications of basically your online digital identity becomes how you're priced into something. And when basically everything that you're buying is e-commerce more and more and more, that means like you're going to be like in this whole new class of... [1:05:36] So, [1:05:37] individuals and how they're paying so um really interesting stuff something um

[1:05:43] Um, that I, uh, a quote here, the newest frontier companies using black box software and personalized data to set special just for you pricing. Um, yeah. [1:05:54] And hoping pretty reasonably that you don't realize what's going on. Remember a couple weeks ago when there was that fake DoorDash AI, like it was like a whistleblower, DoorDash whistleblower who did like a Hacker News post or something. And he was talking about all it turned out to be not real and it was fake. But part of what he was saying, what they were saying in that post was around this like dark practice of like optimizing for price and customer in person in a way that's exploitative. [1:06:24] probably illegal and so it's like everyone was like oh that was such a crazy thing and like it was like it was fake so whatever but like it wasn't it wasn't actually happening totally and i think hey um i think that um [1:06:39] Two things come to mind for me. One, VPN. [1:06:43] VPN in. [1:06:44] situation. I guess that wouldn't matter though because you're putting in your home address. Maybe not for Fordash or Instacart but I do, every once in a while there's something that goes viral on Twitter that's like when you want to book flights, set your VPN to Israel and you'll be able to get cheaper. Like there's that. I don't know if that's true or not and that could totally be [1:07:02] But maybe it's not. I know. So anyway, thank you to the good work of the people at Business Insider for us. [1:07:08] um, highlighting what's going on there. [1:07:12] Okay.

[1:07:14] We will just do a quick next thing here. OK, this is really, really fast. [1:07:22] story here. [1:07:25] eBay kitchen beta. I totally don't know what this is. And I haven't. I didn't look it up. So hold on. This went viral. Thank you so much. This went viral this weekend. [1:07:36] It's a post that says I might be breaking an NDA by posting this, but I got invited to the eBay kitchen beta and quotes and everyone needs to see this. [1:07:43] This is no community. I do not know if this is or not. This is basically, and so the image is like, you know, eBay set up with different listings. And one says spicy chicken noodle soup, family portion serves four. And it's like 8.50. And it's clearly someone made it in their kitchen. Next one is a sourdough loaf. That's one. So this is individual people. Sourdough loaf looks busted. Yeah. And individual people who are selling food. This may or may not be true. But I will say this happens on Facebook Marketplace. There's no. No. [1:08:12] This happens on Facebook marketplace a lot. The way in which you self-identify, the truest self-identification you have above woman, above everything is Facebook marketplace user. Real Facebook marketplace users have seen this a lot. The crowd is loving it. I am always like, okay, um... [1:08:33] Okay. I don't... Wait, people sell food on Facebook? People sell food. Yeah, people sell food. And like, honestly, I... [1:08:42] On Facebook Marketplace, people are selling food. Yeah. What kind of food? Maybe on Facebook, a lasagna sheet. No, they do not. Yes. Yeah. A lasagna. Have you ever purchased food? I've never, but I will say I'm not beyond like considering it.

[1:08:58] There's moments when I'm like... I'm not surprised by that literally at all. You, one, love Facebook Marketplace, and two, have a real issue... [1:09:07] We're females, yeah. [1:09:09] yourself and your family. I understand there's health and safety and kitchen cleanliness and hygiene. No, like really. But like, no, Tina, no. [1:09:21] in your neighborhood grandma is. [1:09:23] Grandma's cooking! Grandma's cooking. I mean, I guess like it's no different than like a ghost kitchen. I guess it's kind of the same thing. [1:09:32] Okay, okay. We have Wes saying it's illegal for a reason. Thank you. Mixed reaction. Okay, would never on eBay. Also, like, how does it get to you? [1:09:41] I do think it's a pickup. Similar to Facebook Marketplace. It's a pickup. It's a pickup or a drop-off situation. It's a Meals on Wheels type of thing. Okay. But I... [1:09:52] Okay, buy nothing. That's worse to me. I'm a hard no on that. I need there to be a transaction so we both understand that there's a value that they're giving me and that I'm paying for. Can I tell you a funny story that I recently had with your husband, Dave? This was a few weeks ago. I was in Nashville. [1:10:12] You guys are... [1:10:13] um the home improvement big big big big that's the thing that's the creative outlet for both of you pre actually yeah i psychosis i think it's kind of moved um [1:10:24] The house is looking great. Thank you. It's warm. There's texture. It's really great. So Dave's showing me his latest projects. And there's like a pride that he has around it that I really love because you guys are like learning how to do it. Like the staircase thing, whatever.

[1:10:41] And... [1:10:41] Then there was like an object. I can't remember exactly what it was. There was an object that was like not quite right. And he was like, this is a Facebook marketplace. Like Facebook marketplace psychosis that's happening in her home. And I was like, he was like, literally the latest one was... [1:10:54] you were on a call or something dave was like dina's like there's a facebook marketplace transaction happening in her home you need to handle it and dave was like and i [1:11:04] Come out from the studio. [1:11:05] And this man shows up in his car and he gets out of the car. And basically they both looked at each other and both had been sent from their wives and didn't know what was happening. Like they didn't know if they were picking up or if they were selling or if they were buying or if they were exchanging money. And they were both just kind of like... [1:11:20] hey and then like had to like piece it together because neither of you guys were available and he was like it ended up like being fine but he was like I remember just being like what what am I doing here and the man was like what are we doing here anyway yeah that shows the depths in which you've yeah I do have to slow it down because I it's also like it sometimes doesn't feel like you're an you're an addict yeah because it's like yeah because it's cash a cash business

[1:11:50] bring in. We have our next guest here. Shall we bring her out? Come on down. I'm really excited to have you come sit right here. Okay. Caladora. Yes. Nice to meet you. Hi, I'm Natasha. It's nice to meet you. Just make sure you're comfortable there. Really good posture here. We have a challenge. [1:12:20] now that. Okay, cool. Okay, let me just do a little intro here. Very impressive bio background intro. Okay, so first of all, you're the co founder at Ostium and Ostium is an on chain gateway to global markets. We have a lot to chat about with regards to that. But basically, you're trading stocks, commodities and forex from Ostium from the most liquid markets in the world with full [1:12:50] you know, [1:12:51] Really exciting stuff we're going to chat with you about. But also very impressive background. So ballerina at the Royal Danish Ballet in Copenhagen, which explains the... [1:12:59] Posture. I think it's more attributable to the microphone. OK, OK. Also Harvard. No, no. Right. And then research and consulting on macroeconomics and neuroscience. So, among other things, worked on a GLP one pipeline strategy, which is very topical and top of mind for this crew. Just to say that was like resurfaced recently and I completely forgot about it.

[1:13:23] I like didn't, when I was, I was like researching GLP on stuff a summer for like a consulting firm. Yeah. And I like totally had... [1:13:31] I had like zero understanding of what year was this like it was 2021 summer okay wow yeah you've you laid you laid the foundations for where we are I had no idea what I was doing it was honestly like it was like pretty eye-opening because it was like it was like a McKinsey and I was just literally managing like the master spreadsheet yeah like a big pharma company on like what [1:13:50] GLP-1 targets they were going to acquire. And I like... [1:13:53] They really talk about metabolics. It was like all kinds. I was like, [1:13:56] already thinking about crypto. I was like, not really. I was a little bit checked out. Um, and then like two years later, I was like, [1:14:03] What I was doing that summer wound up. [1:14:05] Click. [1:14:06] this this like turned out really big yeah it's like really important and i like totally responsible i was like i look back i'm like i was like spoiled i had no idea what i was like yeah well incredible range um incredible background [1:14:20] Tell us about, let's start with Ostium. Tell us about what you're building. Yeah. So, well, you said it beautifully. We're launching gateway to global markets through perps. So we are sort of the category creator of real-world asset perps, which it's kind of nuts to look back because we started the company out of my dorm room in 2022. [1:14:38] in college, me and Marco. We had one core thesis. I [1:14:43] I've been saying that we were in like conviction hell for the longest time. A lot of companies are in like pivot hell. They like pivot from one idea to the next. We were like, we'd never pivoted the company. Like we had like one, it was very contrarian and like unpopular. Um,

[1:14:57] Obviously, when we went to first go raise in 2022, I would know everyone was like herps and like on tried-fi asset, like what? [1:15:04] But we never pivoted the core thesis of the company. And so, yeah, for the longest time, we were like in conviction hell because we had a lot of conviction about where the world was going, but not a lot of market feedback. [1:15:14] And yeah, I tell my team, [1:15:16] every week that focus leads to the path of conviction heaven. [1:15:19] So if you can just stay focused, focused on the right thesis, you will move from conviction hell into conviction purgatory and eventually into conviction heaven. Focus on the right thesis, I think, is the key item there. Yeah. So it's never really pivoted the core thesis. The core thesis was always. [1:15:35] that the biggest opportunity in DeFi was to build, or blockchain generally, was to build out basically perps for, [1:15:42] the whole array of global assets, the most liquid assets in the world. Maybe taking like 30,000 foot view on like, how did we even get to that thesis in the first place? The core like hypothesis or observation that we had when we first started the company, [1:15:55] was we thought that basically the first generation of consumer trading applications evolved between GFC, great financial crisis and COVID and evolved during a world that was [1:16:06] a very different, like a completely different paradigm, basically characterized by three things, super low inflation, [1:16:12] really low and sort of predictable interest rates was, you know, the world of zero interest rates that was never going to change, presumably, and very little geopolitical instability. And kind of like the Fukuyama sense, like the like end of history. And I think COVID basically, like mark this turning point, where and our hypothesis was like, the next 10 to 15 years in the markets, we're going to be like, fundamentally different from the world that like, consumer trading had

[1:16:42] persistently higher inflation, persistently higher and especially more unpredictable interest rates. [1:16:48] It's pretty insane what's happened in the last two weeks. There's been, I think, the fastest flip in years, if not like a decade, in expectations around interest rates. People thought there were going to be, at the outset of the year, there were going to be three rate cuts this year. [1:17:01] We're going to turn on the money printer. And now people are pricing in as of at least a couple of days ago, one rate hike this year. And that's like the fastest flip ever. So not only higher interest rates, just like more unpredictable rate policy around the world, not just in the US. And the last thing, more geopolitical instability. And all of those three things have like become... [1:17:18] like insanely true. Yeah. And we thought like, okay, that was the big picture thesis. Like, what does that mean for like, why are we building this? And so the thesis that we had on like how consumer behavior would change was that there'd be two big things. One, people start trading based on events. We don't wind up building a prediction market, but we think like, [1:17:36] the two kind of play into each other very, very cleanly. It's just basically first order versus second order effects. So first order effect is like, [1:17:44] is this like crazy geopolitical thing going to happen? And like second order effect is like, if it happens, like what happens to oil? Um, [1:17:50] And so we see people doing that. And the second thing was that we thought people were going to be [1:17:54] like cross asset by default. So not just trading like, oh, I'm a crypto trader or like I'm a stock trader or I'm an FX trader, but that like the trader of tomorrow was going to be somebody who would want to trade like, [1:18:04] gold bitcoin nvidia and oil in the same day with the same instrument they weren't going to want to like use options for stocks and like use dated futures for commodities and that is possible in austium that's possible in austium so what do we do we abstract all of it and we let you trade a perp on basically all the most liquid and biggest global markets so you can trade a perp you could go long or short on gold oil

[1:18:24] Nvidia, BTC, you name it, you know, copper, platinum, all of the big global, like from energy, metals, FX, signal name equities, indices, ETFs. [1:18:37] you name it, crypto, all with the same instruments in the same day, in the same way. It's kind of the little clip. I love that. Okay. So you just had, you guys just did a big Series A raise or announced that in December. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you. So seeing some traction clearly. Yes, we are. Exciting. [1:18:53] Yeah, it's great. It's cool to see. Can you explain it to me how it's different than a hyperliquid, which is what I think some listeners might think of when they think about decentralized perp. [1:19:07] trading platform. So how is it different? So I think the easiest way or the kind of like best high level way to conceptualize this is when you look at the trading stack, [1:19:17] There is roughly, this is like an overgeneralization, but I think illustrative, there's like the exchange stack and there's the broker stack. And obviously these things are somewhat, you know, I'm just drawing an analogy, like the traditional market stack is like different than the crypto stack. But roughly we see like the different building blocks and the kind of composable pieces in crypto map roughly to what you would see in the traditional markets. And so if you look at, so like a hyperliquid or any other order book, [1:19:44] you know, lighter, you know, name any of the other, basically the order books, they're fundamentally, they're exchanges. They're decentralized exchanges. They're settled on chain or even matched on chain, but they are exchanges. They're matching orders and there's price discovery happening. Whereas if you're operating at the broker layer, so like one layer above, what you're doing is you're aggregating pricing from different venues. You're basically being this conduit

[1:20:06] for like trader demand and for flows as we would call them. But you're not actually like, you were not the exchange where like orders are getting matched and the kind of like core price discovery is happening. You are kind of aggregating, you were like aggregating flows and in the business of being offered the best pricing on assets by aggregating the flows and aggregating basically a combination of data. Again, I'm overgeneralizing here, but you're one layer above. So the way to think about Ostium is that we're a layer above. And rather than [1:20:36] source pricing from on-chain because these are very nascent markets. So inherently it's not a dig, it's just inherently they're, [1:20:43] less liquid because they're very nascent. [1:20:45] Our vision is to source liquidity from most liquid markets. And our view is that we think if you're a trader, right, and you want to trade gold, [1:20:52] You don't want to trade a derivative on a derivative or a new market on gold. Gold's like a $30 trillion asset. It has certain properties. Like there's a certain size you can clear. There's a certain like, you know, size you can clear without moving through the book or moving the price that you would expect on an asset that's that liquid. And we think we want, like, we want to offer that rather than offer like something that's really nascent and it might, you know, move like a shit coin. So we give you the pricing from the underlying markets. We pipe in, you can think of us as like a real-time bridge to the most liquid markets. [1:21:22] scratch on chain with less liquidity we are the gateway to those okay this makes a lot of sense this is why in the most degenerate chat that we're in um there when a couple weeks ago when everyone was like should we do the oil long short on oil and everyone was like suddenly became an oil trader for like a couple days um that's why the links that were getting shared were awesome links it was because like that's actually like you're not buying a derivative of of uh an

[1:21:52] large. [1:21:53] Correct. Is that right? Roughly correct. Okay. Yeah. You're getting, you're getting the closest thing that you could get on chain to the real market pricing and the real market liquidity. You're not trading like a newly created market. Right. Okay. That makes sense. Okay. I'm going to pull up this tweet here. I, [1:22:09] Oh, you did? Okay. [1:22:11] This is all. I was literally about to say this. I didn't want to interrupt you, but I was joking when you were like, you know, we were talking about training ever become an oil trader for a few days. This is like an incredible tweet. I said it to my family. So many people. It's really true. Okay. So can you explain what we were doing for those five days? Like what, what, explain it like I'm five. [1:22:32] Um, [1:22:33] Like in the world, like what was happening geopolitically or like... [1:22:39] like what that trade was and why so many people thought there was an opportunity in that trade. [1:22:45] Um, yeah. [1:22:47] So – [1:22:48] Simply put, I think everybody was... [1:22:51] taking a position on... [1:22:54] expressing their view of like a theory of mind of like Trump. [1:22:59] And like whether or not he was going to Taco, which is like... [1:23:04] the taco kind of quip is like Trump always chickens out, which is the thesis that, [1:23:10] Thank you. [1:23:11] some people have that like he starts things, but then he like backs off and doesn't actually follow through. So he comes in with a lot of like fire and fury and then actually backs off. And so obviously he, [1:23:21] you know, initiating tensions growing with Iran, the strait getting closed, the strait of Hormuz getting closed would, you know,

[1:23:27] sent oil to Valhalla and... [1:23:31] expressing a view that like trump was gonna chicken out or however you want to frame it would be like they're gonna reopen the straight like he's gonna send oil back he's gonna he's gonna like step off the gas he actually doesn't have the like we don't have the political willpower to like be willing to endure like oil at 200 and so everybody was effectively punting on yeah their theory of mind of like what he what he was gonna do whether he was gonna keep pushing or like step back and when people are making that trade just for people who are super new to it they're [1:24:01] of an oil barrel uh yes okay correct yes [1:24:07] Crazy. Yeah. Okay. That makes a ton of sense. Okay. Can we talk a little bit about metal? Like there's so much, it seems as though every crypto trader has now, they went from oil to metal. I mean, they've been talking about metal for the past few months, but curious, like what you're seeing. [1:24:26] on your platform and when it comes to like trading or trading metals and yeah there was so there was an article we're in an article in bloomberg in at the end of jan [1:24:35] And I think the tagline was like, crypto traders are pivoting to metals. Yeah, exactly. [1:24:40] And, yeah, [1:24:43] Yeah, it's just, it's crazy. Okay, so we have to the core thesis. Like, [1:24:48] Our core view on what the sea change was in macro, like from 2020, like this is a new paradigm. We're like in a brave new world was basically that. [1:24:55] because like the first generation of retail investing involved or like evolved during this time when the drivers of volatility were like specific to the asset class. So if you're trading crypto, you're like,

[1:25:07] Bitcoin having cycle is XYZ. And like, so I have this view on the crypto market or like the this altcoin has some unlocks like you're trading on the asset class. Crypto traders were not following like. [1:25:17] roughly, not at the edge of their seat about what the Fed was doing or the inflation print and looking at it. They're not tracking CPI prints, for sure. And we thought, okay, we're in this new world where rather than the primary drivers of volatility being specific to the asset class, they're now going to be macro is going to become the primary driver of volatility. It's going to become so volatile that if you, and traders chase volatility fundamentally. So macro is going to [1:25:47] volatility that rather like the, the like small individual things within your asset class are going to be pale in comparison as a driver of volatility compared to like, [1:25:56] what we're doing in Iran. Like that, that is the biggest story. Okay. So the biggest, like macro news is the new reality TV. [1:26:01] Like the biggest like story on air is like what's going on in macro. Yeah. Um, [1:26:05] And so – [1:26:06] So yeah, so roughly, I guess to answer your question, like roughly the thesis is like, macro is going to be driving like the trading decisions and people are going to follow this stuff more than they'll follow anything else. And so as a result, they want to like move between these assets because, you know, [1:26:20] different asset classes are affected in different ways depending on what's going on in macro. [1:26:24] Okay. And what do you think that does to crypto? [1:26:28] Um, [1:26:30] Thank you. [1:26:30] I think it just collapses the categorization of like, I'm a crypto trader. It just it were like I'm a stock trader. It's like everybody's momentum chaser now.

[1:26:39] I also think it's like, you know, people have been saying like TradFi and DeFi are converging. Obviously, that's certainly... [1:26:47] True. And, um, [1:26:49] like in every way, basically. But [1:26:52] I also think traditional markets are becoming crypto-memified in some ways. Momentum matters more than anything. Not maybe more than anything, but it matters increasingly in a way that it didn't used to in the past. And that's a very... [1:27:05] crypto way of thinking. I think this is also why crypto traders think and in many cases genuinely do have an edge in these markets now when they never did, because, you know, [1:27:13] I call it like it's kind of like online warfare kind of, um, [1:27:18] Okay, maybe a forced analogy, but in the same way that I think of tech in many ways is like revenge of the nerds. It's like, there's like uncool in high school and tech is like revenge of the nerds. Turns out the nerds are actually like, you know, at the top now. I think of like, what's going on in trading right now as like, [1:27:32] revenge of the super online uh-huh the revenge of like well like you know revenge of wall street it's like revenge of the reddit it's like revenge of fortune it's like revenge of the like perpetually online like twitter people yeah yeah totally and like i i call it postmodern investing [1:27:46] Oh, wow. Okay, you had this tweet here that I also... [1:27:51] want to talk about, I think I can share my tab here. [1:27:55] which is, um, okay. You're pulling up, uh, [1:28:00] presumably like some trend around traders that are profitable on Ostium versus traders that are unprofitable. And you're saying Ostium highly profitable traders are hugely net long while rec traders are slightly net short. So people who are going long more often are more profitable. Like, oh, it seems like that's a big data set. But that was surprising. That was at that moment in time. I think like it points to a general thing that we've been doing a little bit more of that we found quite interesting is like,

[1:28:29] At some point you reach a, like when you have a critical mass of like traders where you can start to see some signals in their positioning or it just tells you something. I mean, I don't know if they tend to be unprofitable and maybe it's an anti-signal, but depending on like whether they're doing well or not. That was like at that particular point in time I was looking, I was just like, I, every day I look like an MCP and I kind of like go through all of our data and I like see what's going on. And I was like digging through the data and I noticed that like, yeah, the traders who had their largest like unrealized P&L. [1:28:56] Um, who were like roughly like profitable, but hadn't realized their gains were super long. Um, [1:29:01] Obviously, this is like a very... [1:29:04] rough metric because in that there might be some people who are like [1:29:08] you know, just have a massive position, but they're only slightly in profit. And some people who have a really tiny position, we're directional, directional, so it's like just a qualifier, but roughly that was, um, [1:29:19] yeah, what we found at that time. But I actually don't know. I haven't looked at the data for today. I'm not sure if that's reversed, but it's very interesting to see. Are the bulls or the bears making money? Yeah, totally. Wow. So interesting and so cool what you're building. I'm going to [1:29:35] Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me on. One last one, actually. Do you have a wild card question? I do have a wild card question, which I... [1:29:42] is around can you explain to me what's happening here I'm going to share my screen again it is um [1:29:50] this. [1:29:51] company private company oh no this stock fund holding uh anthropic opening spacex all private companies what what's going on here yeah what's happening well okay so i actually have a really funny story about this because i woke up this morning to like my brother texting my family group chat like holy shit the money that i put in like fundrise a month ago is like just like 15x

[1:30:21] in one he put in like a thousand dollars like three months ago and it's now like 16k where where do you get that help from um you know what's insane okay you're gonna love this [1:30:34] I'm not joking. [1:30:36] No, no. So, so my brother has like, he's like a, just, [1:30:41] He is like the kind of guy who has like 70 agents. Like he like wakes up. He like, they're like a, they're like a pet that he manages. Okay. So he has like a set of agents running at home instead of agents running at work. Okay. He like, [1:30:52] you know, like comes home and he renews, he like uses all the cloud credit, like clouds, like anthroposically, like losing money on my brother. Cause he like uses all the credits. Okay. Um, and like beyond. Um, but so he has been just like, spends like, you know, 14 hours a day managing his, his network of agents, both for like personal projects and at work. And he was like, [1:31:12] this is the best thing ever. I've never been so motivated. I love this is like completely life, like life changing technology. I need, yeah. He's like, I need to invest. And he used us like everything with anthropic. And he's like, I need to invest in anthropic. [1:31:24] So he asked Claude and was like, okay, I know you're a private company, but in theory, if I wanted to invest in you, like, how would I do that? Okay. And it had, and it like... [1:31:32] He basically spent some time going through all the different ways. There were basically different public funds that have some shares in private companies. And... [1:31:39] He bought this one as like the best. He saw it had the highest concentration of anthropic shares of its like fund investments. Okay. And so he like. [1:31:47] Put some money into it. [1:31:48] Work smarter, not harder. Yeah. He missed Zoom though. I called his attention to Zoom because apparently Zoom, I don't know how the stock is doing right now. I'd be curious to see, but at least like a couple of weeks ago, it was up tremendously because of the similar things. Zoom holdings has like a venture arm allegedly that happened to it and like made some small investment in Anthropoc at like a, like, like in 2021 or something at a really low valuation. Okay. So, and again, this is the example of postmodern investing and like there's actual

[1:32:18] This stuff was – people were talking about this on Twitter – [1:32:21] that like, [1:32:21] about how zoom there were like some weird like niche in on accounts that were like zoom holdings like seems to have like some metro arm that has this big like [1:32:29] share of like some anthropic shares they invested in 2021 presumably at like xyz valuation which like this doesn't seem to be priced in the stock hasn't moved yeah and then like two weeks later the stock like went crazy so that's what's happening people are basically betting on anthropic indirectly yeah yeah yeah yeah okay okay wow really interesting stuff [1:32:46] Thanks so much. We're big, big fans of, of Emily. So congrats on. [1:32:54] I don't know what's public or not, actually, but I think we'll just... [1:32:59] move on um and yeah just excited to um to see where you guys go next thanks guys really big thanks for a lot of momentum thanks indeed thanks for having me yeah thanks for coming [1:33:13] Okay, do I like? Yes. There you go. There you go. Okay. [1:33:21] Thank you. [1:33:21] Thank you. [1:33:22] Thank you. [1:33:23] Bye. Thank you. You're still sharing your screen, just so you know, Dina. [1:33:28] Great. Everyone can marinate on having missed this trade. [1:33:36] Okay, that's our show. That's our show. I'm looking back to see if there's anything else that we wanted to cover. [1:33:44] Um... [1:33:45] It's CC. [1:33:47] happening this week yeah how's it feel it should not be there yeah um

[1:33:54] I mean... [1:33:55] I feel like if we were in the south of France in July, I'd be bummed out. But south of France, March 25th. [1:34:02] Harder sell. Yeah. Nelson had an incredible quote in the Vanity Fair article that she was about. [1:34:07] um, [1:34:09] Yeah. [1:34:10] That they had to change the date because she partied too hard, basically, which I'm obsessed with as a concept. It was incredible. All right. Well, thanks, everyone, for tuning in. And we'll see you next week. See you next week. Bye.