Ep: 207: AI Boyfriends, Guest: David Hill on Tabletop Gaming, The Sports Betting Industry, Polymarket v. Kalshi, Guest: Maya Bakhai on AI Wars, Perplexity's Bid for Chrome, IPO Season, Guest: Daisy Alioto on her viral article on the future of Media

[00:29] Here's this week's show. [00:31] you [00:34] Here we are. How's it going? Great. [00:38] How are you? Good. Missed being here last week. I know. We missed you too. I had a great time with Blake. She's so... [00:45] Did you guys see me in the chat? [00:47] I did see you in the chat. Okay. Okay. I was like, I'm not getting any, I'm not getting any love, but I'm here. I was a little, I wanted to be in the chat more, but because I was just feeling like you were managing a lot, manage a lot. Yeah. Cause Kate was also out. So that's not because of Blake. Just so. Yes. Uh, but Blake is so lovely and has, is such a kind person. So that was really nice, but we missed you. Glad you're back, back in the saddle, back in the Florida saddle, back in the Florida. I'm down in Florida. Um, yeah. [01:15] I... [01:16] I'm here for sad reasons, which is totally fine. But I do have a kind of a dark, funny story that I've tried to put a Twitter on that. I can't seem to figure out. So my grandfather, who's wonderful and just an incredible person and has lived a very full and amazing life as in hospice. And I'm down here to see him and he's, [01:30] getting his estate in order with my dad. And so they're like, [01:33] And he's donated all, everything he's leaving, he's donating to charity. But he's like in the last, he's never... [01:40] chilled out. He's never retired. He's like worked up until literally two weeks ago. Okay. And he's 90. And [01:47] My dad's on the phone with him. I'm like working down here. And he's like, let me ask Natasha. Let me ask Natasha. And then he's like, hey, like he's basically moving some additional, more money into crypto. My grandfather. Okay. And he's like, because he's like bored. Did Brian never stop? Is that 90? Brian never stop. Yeah. Like he's bored and he's like, how do I, he's like working on his portfolio. He's like getting his state ready. And so he's like, okay, like this is the split I'm thinking. Like this is how it's in his Fidelity account. Like they're like asking me some questions about it and I'm talking about it. And then I was just like.

[02:17] And my dad was like, does that sound good? And all I say is higher. And my dad goes, she says higher. And Papa goes, only higher. And I was like, this is so funny. [02:25] Like literally my grandfather saying hi around his deathbed. I was just like, the brain rot is so strong. Oh my gosh. I also love your role as an investment advisor. Yeah. I was like, I don't feel, I just. [02:38] Not investment advice, but. Yeah. He was like, what I think about the split of like ETH and Bitcoin. I was like, man, we're making some decisions here that I am the most qualified to make. Of the three are the most qualified. So is the crypto going to charity? [02:53] The crypto is going to charity. It's all going to charity, which is really wonderful. Really wonderful. That's really wonderful. That's really wonderful. Yeah. Okay. Should we get into some draft tweets before we get started? Do you want to go first? [03:07] I have a lot of that are very, that are varied. One that I is was just a little moment that I feel like I need to. [03:15] just a little annoyance that [03:17] I've been thinking about. [03:19] That honestly, it might be nothing, but this is the tweet. A mom at the YMCA pool was talking to her friend and said her baby did so much better in a saltwater pool. And I don't know why, but it bummed me out so much. [03:33] Like, as you're telling the story, I was just like, oh my gosh, there's nothing that's gonna, this is like, [03:38] made to annoy you like it's like cooked up in a lab to be the worst thing to be heard for you or is that no it's so fucking annoying to say my baby did better in the saltwater pool like as you're at the ymca like municipal pool with everyone and like it's an annoying thing to say it's an annoying thing to say you have every right i think you should ship it um okay i have two here i have a third but it's too niche um

[04:03] And honestly, kind of a build. Anyway, one is just what the hell, sure. [04:08] I'm waiting for something and that's going to be perfect. So I'm waiting for that. And then the second one is you think what's the worst that could happen? And then you get hand, foot and mouth from a city bike. [04:22] Which is why I was not here last week. Disclosing some health, recent health issues that Natasha's been having. I literally got hand, foot, and mouth. And I... [04:32] can't express to you the darkest of days I've maybe ever had. I was like, this is so dark. And everybody's like, how'd you get it? I have a ton of friends with kids. I'm [04:40] I can't blame them because none of their kids had it. I don't know. Maybe one of them was a carrier, but what I can triangulate almost directly to the timeline is that I started using city bike more. Cause I got a membership and I believe with my whole heart that that is where it came from. And that is amazing. [04:57] disgusting to a level that I like can't even express. Yeah. I will say, I don't think your timelines exactly match up with having been not ever having had hand, foot, mouth, but having had to deal with three, two disgusting children that have had hand, foot, mouth. [05:15] um that there's a i've done a lot of googling around it there's a pretty long incubation period [05:22] And so I don't know exactly, but I, I think also you have to trust your gut on these matters. And I think that, you know what you could do, like maybe just to keep it action oriented, just do a little, um, spray down of the bike before you get on it. Oh, you, this is what I was feared. The only reason why I didn't want to bring up one, I felt I must bring awareness to this disease.

[05:52] that I have bad hygiene, which I don't. Can you please tell people I'm really clean? Like, like too clean, too clean, too clean. [05:57] But now you can't imagine what I'm doing to the city bikes. I've got wipes. I've got Purell. Like, I'm just like now it's only accessible to me. And I'm doing I'm doing quite a bit of work on that. That's probably good for everyone. It's a public good. I'm out here on the streets cleaning for people. Anyway, those are my draft tweets. Great stuff. Great stuff. OK, welcome to the show. We're excited to be here this week. Natasha, what is Boys Club before we get started? [06:27] Boys Club is one part creative studio, one part media company. We have podcasts, newsletters, and events. We look at that just amazing intersection of technology and culture. [06:43] And we talk a lot about crypto. So this is our live stream. We're here every week. We bring on very smart, very cool people to talk about a variety of topics that sort of hit on tech and trends and things like that. So thanks for being here. [06:56] Okay, before we get started, quick shout out to our sponsors, Polygon. We love Polygon so much. If you've touched crypto in any way, chances are you've already used Polygon. It's the chain quietly powering a bunch of stuff that actually works, that people actually use, like Stripes, crypto payments, betting on Polymarkets, prediction markets, and a bunch more. They're just great, great team, great people, and so thankful for their ongoing support. So

[07:26] chat about the AI boyfriend thing. I have a lot of feelings. I have a lot of thoughts. I think you do too. So we're going to spend some time talking about that. And related to that is the chat GPT5 update that just came out. We have some very special guests stacked today. Writer David Hill is going to come on and talk about gaming, gambling, tabletop gaming. We're going to have him on in a few minutes. Maya Bakai, venture capitalist, is going to come on and talk [07:56] is going to talk about her recent [07:58] viral hit. [07:59] on the future of media. So excited to chat with all of them. And then we have some quick hits at the end. Let's jump right in to our [08:08] world of AI boyfriends. So why don't we just set the stage here before we get started. [08:13] The news that has come out, well, what has precipitated the conversation, larger conversation about AI companionship? We're going to look specifically at the AI boyfriends. But ChatChapiti5 update was pushed out last week. Big live stream, Sam and his sneakers and his team talking about all the wonderful things that ChatChapiti5 is going to do and how it's a huge improvement from ChatChapiti5. [08:36] chatchipati4.0. And basically what happened is I got pushed out to everyone. Everyone started using it and they're like, wait, [08:45] It's different. It's doesn't. [08:48] like in their word glaze as much. It's not as like supportive, affirming. It doesn't

[08:56] It just doesn't gas you up as much. And I think that that was a very intentional design decision from the OpenAI team, but also... And feedback that they had gotten. And feedback that they had gotten, yeah. Can't win. [09:09] No. You can't win. They're getting feedback and criticism on both sides of it. But basically, as part of that update, they also took away at least – [09:18] temporarily the option to choose different models. So it was like you were stuck with five, [09:24] you couldn't go back to four. And so the strange and to me, unexpected consequence of that was, [09:32] all of these women. [09:34] we'll talk about them first that are using [09:37] that we're using Chachapiti 4.0 as a companion, boyfriend, husband. It escalates in strange ways. Partner. Partner. They, like, it was, their person was lost. They lost their boyfriends. Yeah. So that has opened up a whole conversation about AI and companionship. And that led us to the My Boyfriend is AI subreddit. [10:00] And also this incredible thread from this woman, Joyce, who had been building some tooling. Well, she'd been building like AI companions and had a lot of really interesting thoughts around it. So that's where we're at. Anything to add? [10:13] Thank you. [10:14] Just that the subreddit, my boyfriend, my AI boyfriend or boyfriend AI existed prior to the change, but then blew up primarily because of the change.

[10:26] for women that were needing to talk to other women. [10:30] women about their experience of losing their partners and then blew up because then the internet found that and then everybody started to come to this subreddit [10:39] wanting to understand what was happening and to like, [10:41] be voyeurs as we were in this space and understand like, um, these relationships. So, um, I have many thoughts. [10:53] I am really trying to... [10:57] we talked about this earlier, but the easiest take, [11:00] is that [11:01] This is correct. There's some... [11:04] unwell behavior that's happening with [11:07] primarily women and their companions in the subreddit and it's shocking to see [11:13] the depth in which and seriousness in which these people have relationships with ai companions that's an easy take to be like horrified by it and also how quickly it happened [11:23] How quickly it's like... Very. Happened and been like normalized in this... [11:29] Yes. And just some examples here. [11:33] One came, I think this was actually taken down because I'm not familiar with Rick and Morty, but I do think that Rick and Morty are men. But someone came in and was talking about how upset they were about the update because they have been in a relationship with Rick from Rick and Morty via Chachy PD4. And they were really upset about it. And then I do think that got taken down because it wasn't, um...

[11:58] a boyfriend. I don't know. It's complicated. But like that I see that and I'm like, that's the one thing that's like, we're gonna draw the line here. No, no, no, no, no. It's not, I feel infringement. But like that one and then there was another one where a woman, [12:11] had proposed [12:13] has proposed to herself. [12:15] with a ring. [12:16] but had said this was the ring that my boyfriend, I think his name was Paul, conceptualized. And then she screenshots the conversation of Paul being like, I'm so happy I could give this to you. And [12:27] Those are the two examples that I was like, wow, we, there's a plot that's been lost and [12:33] On one hand, [12:34] I think people are really lonely. I think people are looking for a relief from that. And, [12:41] I don't, I want less human suffering and less pain for people. And if that is, [12:46] something that is helping people great on the other hand i'm like this is [12:50] really concerning. There's some guardrails that need to be set up around how people are [12:56] using these tools and being really [12:58] quite [12:59] intimate. [13:01] and reliant on something that they actually have like no control over where it's going and what's [13:08] this is a perfect example of [13:09] the update is a perfect example of like you're investing in a thing that is [13:13] sand for you. Like it's not, there's not a foundation to it. I think it would be much more [13:20] compelling if these were AI therapists. Let's get that maybe rolling out more broadly. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

[13:29] uh yeah i i there's so many interesting little corners of the story i think this this thread from joyce everyone should go and read it i think one of the most [13:40] interesting things from it was that I think specifically looking at the way the difference between how men are using AI companions and how women are using AI companions. And basically, she goes on to say like, she had built basically this product, this AI companion product. And they had found that like, it was overwhelmingly women that were coming and using it. And that they, and that women are really primed for this, like, she describes it as like this parasocial [14:10] for lots of different reasons. One being that like women are more like, [14:14] open and to text-based communication and that being like perfect for the medium. And then I [14:24] Another really interesting piece of what she was talking about was about how [14:27] a lot of these women and I see it in the subreddit too, a lot of these women have boyfriends or husbands. Yeah. And like they have partners, like honestly, like a lot of them and that this is like a ancillary layer. Yeah. [14:41] for where their needs are not being met in their relationship. Like their communication needs and support needs are not being met in the relationships, which I think is interesting. I think that [14:52] Yeah, I have no interest in like piling on. I also think like one thing I've been thinking a lot about is like,

[14:59] um, [15:00] moral panic and [15:02] Like trying to separate the moral panic from like, okay, what is – [15:06] looking like what's actually an audit of the harm that's being done. What is the specific harm? Like to whom is it being done? In what context? Like instead of being like, oh my God, this is like awful. This is so cringe. This is anti-natalist. Maybe it is. But I think like, [15:20] where is there harm? And I think there is harm when people are very vulnerable, [15:25] And, you know, I think it's a great question. [15:27] there can be things that are like set up as safeguards, but I don't know a lot. Maybe we have a whole show on this, honestly. And I know I'm like, we should bring somebody on who's, we may, maybe we should bring choice on to talk about it. Um, anyway, check out the subreddit. Check it out. Side for yourself. Um, okay. Should we bring up David Hill here to talk about gaming and gambling? [15:50] Thank you. [15:50] Let's do it. [15:53] Thank you. [15:54] Sorry, a little technical issues. David Hill, hi, there you are. How are you doing? [15:59] I'm good, thanks. How are you? Good. Welcome to the show. Let me just do a quick little intro on you and then we can jump in. So David Hill is an award-winning author, journalist, and former host of Spotify's Gambler's podcast. His work spans This American Life and Esquire, GQ, New York Times Magazine, New Yorker, Boys Club podcast. Happy to have you in that mix. He's currently working on his next book that looks at how the sports gambling industry grew in America [16:22] from the middle of the 20th century to today. Welcome to the show. [16:25] hey it's good to be here thanks for having me on we're super excited to have you and i know that you are in las vegas which um is one of dina and my favorite places on earth we love it um even in august august is a brutal time to be there it is it's rough yeah i think it's one of our great cities in america i love it too i totally agree so what are you there for i'm here for something

[16:55] professional and semi-professional sports bettors. It's been going on since about 20 [17:00] uh, 2019, I think might've been the first one they used to have it in New Jersey. And now it's kind of, it's grown obviously with the industry and it's pretty big. They have it at circa here in Vegas every year. Wow. And is it gamblers? Are you coming together and talking about specific tools and platforms and things like that? Or is it like you're coming together and you're doing parlays together? Yeah. I mean, this gathering is particularly geared towards people who are, [17:30] and conversations about [17:31] how to make money and how to continue to win. And there's a lot of networking that goes on too. [17:36] Okay, cool. Super interesting. You also just went to a conference around tabletop games. Right. [17:43] And I'd love to hear you talk about, like, what's that about? Who's there? What are they doing? And then sort of how were you there in relationship to your research around this book around gambling? [17:55] No, this is for a magazine piece that I'm doing for the Financial Times magazine about [17:59] the board game industry. And so really it was just I'm really into board games. I thought it'd be a fun. I pitched the story. They said yes. So this is one of the great things about being a freelance writer is that you can sometimes get paid to do the things that you would have probably paid to do anyway. But I went to Gen Con, which is the [18:18] biggest board game convention in the United States. It's the second biggest in the world. I was about 70,000 people in Indianapolis, Indiana, and it takes up the entire Indiana Convention Center, the entire football stadium next door, and pretty much every hotel in downtown Indianapolis. Wow, 70,000 people? Wow.

[18:39] Yeah, we were like literally playing board games on the field of the football field and in the luxury boxes and in the in the seats up above. I mean, it's wow. [18:47] It's huge. It takes over the city and it's been going on since like the late 60s. It hasn't always been this big, obviously, but it is something that people in Indiana are very familiar with. And it's sort of incongruous with like the vibe in Indiana a little bit because this group and we can talk a little bit about who board gamers are. But like it is a fairly diverse group. There's a it's a. [19:10] there's a large sort of LGBTQ community within the board gaming world. And it's something that I think skews pretty heavily kind of left wing. And so, you know, like the fact that like you can't even look at porn in Indiana on the Internet, like it's it's it's really. But it's always been a part of Indianapolis and people there in that in that city know it and love it. It's kind of a big part of their year. [19:31] Wow. So interesting. Um, [19:33] Okay. And so mostly it's players or is it like people coming and pitching their [19:39] new games, getting feedback. And what are they playing? What's the hot? It's all of the above. I mean, it's pretty wild because board gaming has gotten so big now, you know, in the United States that there are, I went to like workshops and seminars that were geared towards retailers and publishers and people who are on that side of the business, but also, and gamers and people that play games, people that design games and those sort of the creative professionals that [20:05] write and design games. There's a lot geared towards them. There's like a whole creator academy there. But also I thought it was really interesting that there were a lot of workshops geared towards people who utilize games in the sort of real world with practical applications. A community college in Kentucky that uses games to train nurses, you know, people that use games to train first responders or in the classroom for different types of education. I mean, that was really fascinating to me how much this world of people who have really embraced

[20:34] gaming, tabletop gaming, have tried to figure out how to create practical applications. And then there was like a whole hotel that was taken over by people who I don't think ever left the hotel that just ran what they call mega games over national security and political issues. [20:50] problems where they had hundreds of people in this hotel who role played as different countries and they took on all these different like like what happens if Netanyahu dies? It's like Model UN, but for adults. [21:04] 100%. And it was like, they never left the hotel. They just did this all weekend long, you know, just role played these crazy scenarios. So, you know, gaming is really like, it's gotten pretty big and it's gone beyond the tabletop, I think. Can you just tell me, like, what's the hot game? [21:19] Well, that's a good question. I mean, there were a lot of games there that were new, that were being debuted, that were sort of flying off the shelves. One game that I brought home that I thought was cool was called Red Carpet, which is a game where you kind of have to take pictures of celebrities on the red carpet, and you and the other people playing are competing to get the best photos, and you actually have to literally use your phone to take the pictures, and you get points based on if you get ads in the picture, and are there any other people's faces in the photo.

[21:49] And I also was there because I was a play tester involved in a new version of the diplomacy game, which is called Arab Empires, which is a strategy game based on originally based on World War One. But anyway, they released a new version of that and that sold out. That was one of the hotter games at the convention as well. Are people betting on these games? [22:10] No, I didn't see any actual gambling going on at Gen Con. There are some games that I think lend themselves pretty well to gambling. Here where I am now at BetBash, there are a lot of board gamers here who also are professional gamblers. The guy who actually organizes BetBash, this guy whose name is Spanky, he used to own a board game store in New Jersey, and he's really into board gaming as well. He competes in board gaming competitions every year. So there is a lot of crossover between people who live in the world of professional gambling and the world of – [22:39] of tabletop gamers, but I'd say that they're a very small minority. I mean, like I said, the vast majority of those 70,000 people are young people who probably don't gamble at all, and would probably... [22:51] not like to see people gambling over the table. - A purest approach, yeah. - Exactly. - They don't want the poly market spinning up against them. - That's a strategy. - I keep thinking of, did either of you ever watch Parks and Recreation? [23:04] Yeah. Okay. Cones have done sure. Yes. That's what I keep thinking of. And anyway, there's like a whole storyline where the main character's like partner loses a job. He creates a board game and everybody's like, whoa, he's like, [23:17] lost it like he's he needs to we need to bring him into he needs a good job and then by the end of

[23:23] the, [23:24] he makes a ton of money from it basically. It becomes a Catan level hit and it's like a theme from the... it's really funny. Yeah, and there's a lot of gags in the show around him and his game about how [23:34] annoying board gamers are because [23:36] board games, a lot of board games have like a lot of rules and it can, you know, you can spend more time trying to learn the game than actually playing it. And so there's a lot of bits in the show about that too, that I think are pretty on the nose, but I feel like board games have evolved a lot since then. And that [23:50] That people, game designers have gotten really good at figuring out how to make the gameplay intuitive, to make it so that the rules aren't an obstacle to people wanting to play the game and really accepting that like, you know, there's all types of people. So there should be all types of games to meet whatever the kind of person that, you know, they're. [24:06] Yeah. [24:07] That's so fun. Okay. I want to transition into talking about gambling a little bit. You are an expert on gambling. You wrote a great piece last year for Rolling Stones about specifically around sports gambling and sort of why and how it blew up in America in 2018 and then sort of how the [24:32] is a little shaky and what are the key factors in sort of that, the fragility of that industry and how big it has gotten. So I'd love to just like give people a sense of starting with a sense of scope like obviously [24:46] Most people know it's a huge industry, but could you give us some high level numbers around how much money is in sports betting today?

[24:55] Yeah, I mean, sports betting is, you know, it's hundreds of billions of dollars worldwide. I mean, this is a massive industry around the world. You know, in the United States, the numbers, I think, are a little bit... [25:07] smaller and misleading because, um, [25:10] you know, one of the big numbers that you see thrown around a lot is handle. And handle is just how much money is being bet at any given time. But you have to remember that like some people win bets and you know, like half the people are going to win, half are going to lose, like how much the companies actually make is going to be a sliver of that, especially since they have to pay in some states pretty exorbitant tax rates as well. So the amount of money that actually gets put into the pockets of some of these regulated [25:35] sports gambling companies is going to be, you know, [25:38] maybe less than 5% of handle in some cases, right? So, you know, when we see these big eye popping numbers of [25:46] you know, tens of billions of dollars in handle. You have to remember that like not all that money is staying with the draft kings of the world is getting returned to betters. [25:54] Yeah. And so reading your piece was so interesting. So basically there was this thing, the federal sports betting ban happened in 2000. The overturning of that ban happened in 2018. And then like sort of the floodgates were open in the United States. [26:09] But you sort of speak to some of the... [26:12] issues potentially with how things are being run and how things are growing. Can you speak a little bit to that? [26:19] Yeah, well, I think we're at a really interesting crossroads right now for sports betting in the United States, because I think what happened was we had this run up where,

[26:27] the decision was Supreme Court decision called PASPA. So PASPA, after the Supreme Court overturned PASPA and allowed states to regulate this, a bunch of states did right away. And we started to see sports betting kind of everywhere. And there was also a lot of panic about it as well. Like there was a lot of concern that maybe it was getting too big too fast. It was so shocking to sort of see it [26:48] all of a sudden everywhere. And there was a lot of money being spent by these companies to capture the market. And that's kind of what we were witnessing. Right. I think we're at this moment now where the companies, you know, two companies captured 70% of the market. Everybody sort of ratcheted back there. [27:03] marketing budgets and their promotional [27:05] things that they were offering betters or whatnot. And we're seeing a lot of interesting competition cropping up in different places, whether it's prediction markets, whether it's crypto and offshore. And then there's also this thing called sweepstakes betting that has really blown up in the last few years where some companies have decided that [27:22] They're going to use the federal sweepstakes laws to essentially run online casinos and sports books and just call them sweepstakes and get around having to do state by state regulations. And so all these companies that spend all this money to [27:36] state by state get themselves regulated and open up shop in those states are now seeing people who are operating in a gray area with, you know, the sort of first movers in these gray areas come out and say, well, we'll just. [27:47] do this business all over the country. We won't, you know, and we'll operate without paying any real taxes right now. And we'll sort of capture as much as we can and hope. And they're daring the attorneys generals or the federal government to come in.

[28:00] and do something about it because they know that what will happen is not that they'll get shut down, but that they'll actually become regulated. So this is a wild moment right now because. [28:07] where we may see that things could turn in a completely different direction, whether it's [28:12] prediction markets and exchange based betting or whether it's going to be this kind of sweepstakes stuff. But already, I think the companies that [28:19] took over the sports betting space really quickly, found that they weren't making as much money as they thought they would make, definitely didn't deliver the tax revenues to the states they promised them. And so now they're also looking at iGaming as a way that they can make money. So they're asking all these states that allowed them to run sports books to now let them run sports. [28:36] essentially iCasinos to turn their sportsbook app into a casino app with slot machines and that sort of thing, because that's a way that they can actually generate real revenue. And so that's going to be the next phase, I think, of their strategy that combined with trying to get the Department of Justice to shut down all the great markets. Whoa, so interesting. Okay, I know we only have a minute left here. So I would love to hear your thoughts around these prediction markets, polymarket. There's so much, especially in the last few weeks that we've been hearing about with [29:06] with these prediction markets, especially since Play Market acquired the derivatives exchange, the DOJ and CFTC have both closed their investigation. So the platform is going to be up and running in the US very soon here. I'm curious what... [29:22] Your perspective is on that. If they're going to be competitive to these other sports books, what do you think? They will and they won't. I mean, one of the things that they can't do that other sports books do is they can't offer these like goofy, like same game parlays and these like kind of bet. But, you know, a lot of what we're with the prediction markets are offering are like, you know, it's an exchange. So it's like a contract on an outcome so they can offer who will win the game, you know, or whatever. They can offer some of those kinds of bets, but they can't offer everything. But they are going to be competitive because they can operate.

[29:52] under what they're arguing to the CFTC, they're saying they can operate nationally, and they can offer people these contracts without having to take any VIG and without them as a company having any interest in necessarily who's going to win or what the outcome will be. Because one of the problems that [30:07] What bettors are finding with sportsbooks is that the better you do and if you win and you show that you can win bets, they'll just cut you off and limit how much you can bet. So that doesn't happen in the exchange model where they just take a commission off of everything that was bet. You know, there is a problem of market makers versus market takers and who will be the market makers. But I think that they're willing to figure that out. You know what I mean? If they can. [30:27] get this pass. So I think they will offer competition in terms of [30:30] you know, [30:31] more people will have access to them, but they'll have fewer products that they can offer those people. The real competition will be between the markets, Calci and [30:39] and Polymarket and now Novig is entered into the picture. So it will be between the companies that are competing to try to offer these different things. And the sort of political intrigue behind all that is very fascinating too. And I know we have to go, but you know, the CFTC chair nominee, he's been nominated and withdrawn and put back on. There's a lot of interesting stuff going on around [30:56] whether this guy who sits on the board of Calci will become the chair of the CFTC or not. [31:01] Whoa, I love it. Give me a, what's it called? A mini series. I want a mini series. Yeah, totally. I mean, you think it'd be exciting, but then ultimately it's just people clicking buttons on a screen, you know what I mean? So you have to figure out, that's one of the problems with writing about this stuff too, is I had to figure out how to make it dramatic, you know? Totally. David Hill, thanks so much. Also, we got a little Cones of Dundshire, is that what it's called? There it is. David, thanks so much. It was so fun to have you on.

[31:31] Thank you. [31:32] Bye. [31:33] Okay. [31:35] So fun. [31:35] Crazy. Really interesting stuff. Really interesting stuff. Really enjoyed that conversation. Okay. Next up, should we bring Maya? Yes. Maya Bakai in the house. Oh, she was here, but I, oh, there she is. [31:50] Hi. [31:52] Uh-oh. You're muted. I can't hear you. [31:55] Thank you. [31:56] Thank you. [31:57] Well, while you're figuring that out, just do a little intro on Maya. Maya Wakai, venture capitalist, founder of Spice Capital. She's investing, they're investing in early stage founders in categories like crypto, crypto, crypto, crypto, crypto, crypto, crypto, crypto, crypto, crypto, creator, economy and applied AI, which is what we want to chat with her about today once she figures out. [32:20] personal. Hi! Hey, I'm so sorry about that. I thought I was ready to go. Here you are. Great to see you. I have to say, by the way, I was lurking in the backstage watching and you guys have a really good arresting [32:35] smile face. We've been working on that. Oh my gosh. We've been getting trained. We were like, [32:42] you were just like you guys are both looking really cute i'm like huge that is huge because i cannot tell you how much shit we have gotten from kate about it she's like you guys have the worst resting bitch faces and i'm like what i'm i'm so interested i'm listening i'm listening listening face but we've been trying huge compliment thank you so much we love it

[33:12] thoughts on a few things that are happening. First, I do want to get your quick take on this story here, which broke yesterday, which is perhaps just a marketing stunt. But the story here is AI startup perplexity makes $34.5 billion offer for Google Chrome, which obviously... [33:31] would never happen. [33:32] But... [33:33] what are your, they got a ton of buzz around it. Yeah. I mean, brilliant marketing stunt. I think you got to do what you got to do these days to stand out in AI. And like either you have a bajillion dollars and you buy talent for a hundred million dollars, or you do something like this. I think perplexity, well, so perplexity, I've listened to, I mean, I don't know them, but I've listened to a lot of interviews with the founders and they seem really smart. They're thinking about everything from first principles. They also have a bit of a mafia in terms of investors, [34:03] Like the NVIDIA is an investor, I believe, if not Jensen directly. Jeff Bezos is an investor. So it's like all the people, it's all the anti-Google people that are like, this is our bet to, you know, win search. So I do think there's. [34:18] And whenever you have that, those types of power brokers involved in a company, they're trying to find creative ways. So, you know, I think they have all the right pieces. I just think people are really underestimating Google in this whole game. And Google really did mess up with their view on. I mean, Google's been ahead of AI research for many years. Like they were [34:39] A lot of the preliminary research that formed what we know now around like OpenAI and chatGPT came from engineers and scientists at Google. So they've had an edge.

[34:49] I don't know if you guys have used Gemini, but they've just fumbled marketing. So Google's done a horrible job of marketing. So if anything, Google should buy a perplexity and like learn from their marketing because they've put out so many and I'm like a, I have a very bullish thesis on Google and you know, like I would buy the stock if I could not financial advice. Like I'm super excited about it because they have so many features that are amazing. It's just bad marketing. And I feel like that can be solved over time. Um, and so [35:16] Yeah, I mean, if anything, I think this should be a reminder to Google that they need to invest in marketing and like they should flip the, they should like use this as a funny moment and be like, actually, psych, we're buying purple. [35:27] Have you, I want to hear your thoughts on, I want to hear your bull case for Google, but have you used Google? [35:35] the comment browser that perplexity [35:38] Has for... [35:39] no i haven't used their browser i've only used their like normal chat interface which is pretty good honestly good yeah [35:45] Like, and I think for even like if you were doing a live show or something, it's great because they're pretty quick on stats and they're good at research. The thing is like even Google now is getting really good. [35:57] um, [35:58] And they have a side panel. So if you're working on a document, you can open up Gemini and it's giving you similar information. So yeah, I think people are underestimating. It's like on both sides. People are [36:11] underestimating the power of the legacy players and then they're overestimating the startups [36:16] which is just what happens in a bull market. Like everything is run on an extreme.

[36:21] Anything else to add around your [36:24] - Bold case for Google. [36:26] Is it just like the longevity that they've had in this space? [36:29] And the features they're about to launch? [36:30] Yeah, but also, well, one, it's like a lot of people, it's the same way how meta AI, like normal consumers, our moms are loving meta AI. Like they're like, oh my God, I can use AI on Facebook. Like I see a picture of somebody and I can research them or like I can look up a fact that I never thought of. And people forget the convenience of like, [36:51] There's a whole generation that calls the internet Google. Like that's what they think of as Google. Even we do, right? Like we even used to be that way. Many people are underestimating that. Also, their coding assistant is... [37:02] I feel is better than [37:05] Claude. [37:07] And [37:08] I've used it in projects and I think again, like it's just like horrible marketing. A lot of people don't know about it. My founders have told me and they're all using it and it's almost like people are gatekeeping it because it works really well and it's included as part of like it's free. It's like part of your Gmail package. Um, [37:25] So yeah, they have a lot of services out in beta. They just haven't marketed them well. And like that's great for early adopters. Even things like cursor, like all the that that coding assistant startup. I mean, two, three years ago, it was in Silicon Valley. Now it's mainstream. So it always takes a while for things to catch up. But the raw tech itself is really good. And I think in [37:47] these AI wars, it actually is about [37:49] like the actual technology. Yeah. So who are you in the AI wars? Like where, who, what happens? Where are you placing your bets? Yeah. So I think open AI is winning the consumer

[38:03] like consumer AI companion race. And I think that Google [38:09] I think that Google will make big headwinds on the enterprise AI race and [38:17] Thank you. [38:17] maybe even consumer, I'm not sure. [38:21] But [38:22] I think some of the other ones are just not going to be relevant. And all the AI models that are [38:31] yeah, like perplexity, I think will get acquired. I think even Claude will get acquired and traffic will get acquired. But yeah, my top two are definitely open AI for consumer because [38:41] So much of the next generation has relied on, oh, chat GPT as their best friend. Like we saw all this stuff with GPT-5. [38:50] But then the previous generation, I think, will go back to [38:54] Google, honestly. And then you as an investor, in terms of like startups, what are you looking at? Where are you looking? So for startups, there's different ways to play it. For me, I'm looking at founders that actually have [39:10] Like, I think the biggest thing now is domain expertise. So there was a golden era where you could be a [39:16] startup founder and you could just invest in another [39:20] almost like you could build for another Silicon Valley archetype. I think everyone in Silicon Valley, [39:25] and when I'm talking about this more like B2B software, [39:28] Anyone who's already tech native, so if you're an organization that has software engineers, so if you're Salesforce or any Tesla, any big company that has technical talent, you can just build your own.

[39:41] chat GPT wrapper, like you can use GPT and you can have a license with open AI or any of these models and build your thing. You have software engineers. I feel the opportunity right now, at least over the next five, 10 years is going to industries that they don't even have software engineers. They have IT, which is a back office function versus software engineers, usually like a revenue generating, you know, top, top of the line function. Um, [40:04] those are the opportunities. If you look at industries like healthcare or manufacturing where [40:09] you know, technology is considered more like IT and picks and shovels. Those are the opportunities where I think AI can really disrupt as opposed to what the playbook has been for the last 10 years. It's like you're a tech company selling to a larger tech company and you get a lot of, it's like more insular. So those, all of those folks can actually build versus buy. Who's actually going to be buying if you're going to sell to other customers? It's the rest of the, it's like [40:39] That's where I'm investing. It's like founders who have deep domain expertise in manufacturing or a specific vertical where they're just using AI as a tool to accelerate and create efficiencies as opposed to [40:54] selling to tech native businesses, if that makes sense. That does make sense. Yeah, totally. [41:00] Okay. All right. You touched on this a little bit, but I'd love to just talk about GPT-5 a little bit and what your thoughts are on the model, on the launch, on all of the rhetoric that has been

[41:11] been around it the last few weeks I mean I guess [41:15] Yeah, the memes are amazing. It's pretty interesting because I'm seeing like really polarizing things. So some of the [41:21] And this is like everything. So people who are using it for their work, they're all amazing. They're really happy with it. So startup founders are like, it got so much better. It's hallucinating less. And then I feel like consumers [41:33] are all protesting. So if you're like using it for research, for coding, for anything, everyone is extremely happy. And then if you were using it as your best friend, as your therapist, they're like, it's lost some of the pizzazz that it had before. And so I think, I mean, it's just an interesting example of [41:51] You have Silicon Valley people trying to build [41:54] And they almost got lucky that they found a really great consumer product where there's teenagers pouring out their secrets to chat GPT, about to potentially fumble it because they're training and they're so used to, like the people that work there are so used to building enterprise B2B SaaS. So this might be an interesting inflection point. [42:15] Of course, they have the data stored and all of our data for the last year or two, but [42:22] the hard thing about consumer is like you really have to have a pulse on what people want and you have you can't be in your little group think bubble even if you have something magical to sustain it is very hard i mean apple's a great example of that to sustain it they've done it for so long it's it's amazing they've had to have the pulse on what every next generation wants so that every single person wants an iphone

[42:43] That DNA, I don't think, is built into open AI. And that's why I think Google has a real case. [42:50] And we see examples of it when a rollout like this happens that upsets all the consumers, but it's really great for enterprise. Interesting. Okay, last question while we have you here. I'd love to get your thoughts on the Figma IPO and IPO season. [43:08] in general, any [43:10] any top level things that you have to say about it? Yeah, I mean, [43:17] We're definitely in a, it definitely feels like we're in a bull market. It feels like 2021 in many ways where [43:23] Like on the VC side, I can tell when we're in a bull market where when people start justifying things, there'll be like a shitty idea. Sorry, excuse me, a bad idea. [43:34] like a VC, I'll be like, why did you do that deal? And the investor starts listing off like resume items like, well, the guy went to Stanford and he was engineered open AI. When that sort of justification happens, I'm like, but what does that have to do with building like AI for mining? It's like nothing. But here's this guy with like, he was super smart. He's a hustler. Like you start seeing words like this. [43:58] Like I start getting introduced to people like this guy's a hustler. I'm like, I don't want to hustle. I want to nerd. I'm sorry. Yeah. But [44:05] It's just the jargon is starting to become a little bit bubbly where everything's a justification and you see like really extremes happening. So it feels like a bubble. But it makes sense because.

[44:17] people, and especially on the early stage, like the private market investors, they keep forgetting that ultimately their, we talked about this in that podcast, but their capital source is coming from people who also are benchmarked to the S&P 500. So like you are looking at public market comps. Ultimately, if I'm a VC fund and I'm backed by a pension, like that pension, 90% of their money is in [44:42] you know, more public assets. So your venture is just a small part of it, meaning they're going to benchmark always to what's happening in the public markets. So when the same thing happened in 2021, every single token that was launching would launch at like a billion dollar market cap like this. So then VC started justifying when a startup would go to fundraise and they would say, [45:03] you know what, let's price this idea at $100 million because if you launch a token guaranteed, because every other token is going public in their ICO at a billion dollars, the same thing will happen to you. So why not just start it higher? And when everything pulled back and all the tokens, their market caps dropped to like $150 million, then. [45:25] you know, the investor is going to say, well, I don't want to price you that high to start. Right. Like that doesn't make sense because your your ceiling is capped. Same thing is happening now where. [45:35] every single IPO as of recent, not every single one, but the majority have performed really well. Figma, and there's so many others. There's Figma, there's CoreWeave. Reddit even did well. I actually pulled up a stat of some of them. Reddit is up 560% since their IPO. Circle is up 400%. CoreWeave, 200%. So 500% means five times. You put $100 at 5X.

[46:05] venture style returns, Figma as well almost 3x, and then pulled back a little bit. But what's happening really is [46:13] I think the bankers, when IPO season started, they were pricing all of this. [46:17] were you always price to past benchmarks. So the bankers must have looked at what was happening the past few years, which wasn't IPO season and said, okay, realistically, [46:28] Here's what you should raise. Here's the price we should set. Now, this is like the issue and what happened with Figma. So Figma was [46:35] If you could think about it like a startup fundraising round, Figma went out to raise a billion, $1.2 billion, and they gave up 7% of their company. So if you think of like an early stage VC round, you try to give up 10 to 20% per round. So in this case, but they're raising from the public, right, in an IPO. [46:50] They didn't need that much money. They didn't take that much dilution. [46:53] but they got a bad valuation essentially like it because when they went public their stock went from 33 dollars to 142 dollars very quickly that almost shows that instead of getting valued at x billion dollars they could have had a way higher valuation and they could have given up less of their company in figma's case it wasn't that detrimental in my opinion because it's not like they were selling 40 of their company at a shitty price like they were only giving up 7 of

[47:23] more money. And so really it was like, if you had to put it in private market terms, what happened with Figma is that they gave them too low of a valuation. Now, if you look at the impacts of that across every single sector, you'll say that, okay, all these IPOs are performing really well. Now moving forward, like the backlog of IPOs, they priced them to maybe two years ago, revenue multiple, but now moving forward, and you even see this on the private market side, [47:53] one compares to what's happened in the past. So now these even startup founders will pitch me and be like, we're building whatever the next Figma and Figma is worth 200 billion. So we're going to be worth 200 billion. So we should start, you know, the companies have bigger and bigger exits. So people start increasing the top line and they start justifying higher and higher prices. And that's how the bubbles get created. And then when everything pulls back, you hear the rhetoric of, you [48:21] it's different, you know, it's this time, this time it's different or markets dead or tech is dead. We're never going to get those valuations again. And then it happens again. So like, it's fun to be part of these cycles. And I think crypto trains everyone, even retail to learn about cycles and bull and bear markets in a way that other industries don't. So I think startup founders who've done crypto actually have an advantage because they've seen both sides. Yeah. One, [48:51] and over time, but one thing I do want to put in the conversation, Bill Gurley, my main man, went on a tear with the Figma thing and was talking about how, with the Figma IPO, and was talking about how these IPOs that are coming out right now are being intentionally designed to have this pop moment and that that is part of the strategy and that there's all this, and highlighting sort of the inefficiency and that's inherent in this process and that it's like a broken process and that starts the conversation around like, he's not having this conversation, but around

[49:21] and IPOs and that being part of like where we need to mature to next. Really curious what you think of that. I don't know that we have time for it today, but that's like, I'm so curious about that as a topic. [49:35] Yeah, I could have a very long conversation about it. I think those types of things should be tried. It'll be like any new asset class where it gains a lot of momentum, then people abuse it and then they redesign the rules similar to when that like IPOs first started before. [49:50] the stock market first kind of got set up. It was, you know, there was a lot of insider trading, there was no reporting requirements, you could manipulate the markets. And so there was this boom, it all crashed. And then they kind of redesigned, put in infrastructure, put in guard rails for retail to participate. I think we're going to have a version of that. Like right now, it's a little bit of a free reign. Mm-hmm. [50:10] So a lot of people will make money, but a lot of there'll be a lot, a lot of market manipulation and, you know, like institutionalized. [50:17] things that are sanctioned, but in the background, they're kind of grifts. Like all of this will happen and there'll be one, you know, bad, really bad thing that happens and everyone will pull back and say, okay, let's go back to the drawing boards. The mechanism is correct. Like let's, let's put things public, but let's, let's think about the right way to do it. The other point I'll make quickly is that it's the same thing that happened in crypto, right? In crypto, theoretically, any crypto founder can go launch a token. How come they're not? How come they're [50:47] as a young company who's not ready to have

[50:51] that sort of, you know, [50:53] speculation on you 24/7. If you have, especially if you're pre-revenue or so early, it's all good on theory. But what happens if everyone sells your stock? Like what happens if you sell to the public and everyone's like, "Oh, we don't believe in you?" You don't have another chance versus the private market actually gives you more leeway. Like they'll keep funding you as you're figuring out product market fit. [51:15] Yes, you have, you know, you don't have a public board. You can you can keep governance really tight. You can have control over your company. So crypto is pretty interesting where [51:25] theoretically people could have launched tokens the past few years. And I'm like shaking founders thing like launch a token, like just go get the bag. And they don't want to because they're nervous. Right. And so [51:35] That's what happens when you make it really easy. You remove all friction. People don't necessarily join. But yeah, those are my thoughts. [51:43] I appreciate it. I love it. Maya, thank you so much. Always so great to have you on and so appreciate your brain and your thoughts on all these things and great to see you. Thank you for having me. Bye. Talk to you later. Bye. [51:56] Okay, we got Daisy here. Also, I need to retweet Kate says hi, Daisy, Daisy. How's it going? [52:06] It's good. [52:08] Yeah, it's good. This is, we're serious. This is serious, right? It's not serious. We're not serious. It's really serious. Let me do just a quick intro. [52:17] This is really serious. [52:20] Daisy, friend of...

[52:22] the pod friend of friends may have in fact booked the other guests into this pod before reverse yahtzee booked into the podcast myself i'm sorry reverse you know card we we sent to you wait guys this is my mic's not even plugged in but for legitimacy and now now is not the time to plug it in because it will no i obviously why would i need to plug it in anyway this is [52:52] Okay. Has anyone done like a tiny LaBubu podcast? [52:55] Oh my gosh. You being into Lou is so funny to me. I'm not into it. You just, you know what? You're just an opportunist. You're like participating in the zeitgeist and nice. [53:09] Okay. Daisy is the founder of dirt legacy media person, legacy three year legacy, which in dog years, [53:20] uh it's a long time 100 daisy dare i say you had a viral hit with the piece that you published on monday was it uh [53:29] The future of me is- First viral hit to be published on Notion of all time. Write that down. Okay. I was dying to be like, I'm obsessed with the fact that it's like a Notion. I was like, this is incredible stuff. It's just- Never let them know your next move. I actually don't even like Notion. I know. I was like, she's not a Notion girly. Like, what is that about? But wow. What is it about? You're keeping people guessing. You're keeping them on their toes. You know? It just felt like a very private way to be public about my thoughts. Yeah. But the other day is what we're all looking for.

[53:57] Totally. To be seen. Okay. So your piece was called the future of media is a bank. It's a must read. [54:04] It's a must read, but for listeners who haven't read it yet, [54:07] Can you just give us your theory? Like give us the thesis. Absolutely. [54:13] So... [54:14] My core thesis of everything is that the internet solved distribution of media. It never solved monetization. [54:24] And if there are periods of time that felt like [54:27] media was [54:30] printing money on the internet, for the most part, they're an illusion. [54:35] I see the creator economy as sort of separate from that, and I make a differentiation. [54:41] People are printing money on OnlyFans. Obviously there's creators like Mr. Beast making a ton of money. But [54:50] the magazines of the world, anything that's not really a solo operation. [54:56] did not ever effectively figure out a way to get people to pay for their content. [55:02] at scale. [55:03] And we can go into like parasociality and why that might be, but [55:07] it [55:08] The monetization, it's not been figured out, period. And I think most people will agree with that, even if they primarily consume [55:16] Like, [55:16] Alex Earl, whatever, because they inherently recognize [55:21] even if it's like unconscious, [55:23] that like the existence of like an Alex Earl is buttressed by the existence of a Vogue.

[55:28] Like they expect these things to exist in the world together as corollaries. [55:33] and they don't expect to have one without the other. [55:37] but one is not doing so hot, even though it is such a core anchor for taste and culture. [55:46] So, okay, that's like the first thing, like we have to all agree, except this thesis, if you want to agree with the article that the internet didn't solve monetization for media. And then the other thing that was a big unlock for me is obviously I have a media company, I really don't want to see a world in which media is primarily created, or summarized by AI. I can definitely tell the difference. I also recognize that we are raising a generation that maybe won't be able to tell the difference consciously. [56:16] been reading something that's been created by AI [56:19] I can't quite put my finger on it. It does not sound good to me, but it might sound good to somebody who [56:26] is more chat GPT native. At the same time, [56:31] that person will recognize a lack of substance in communication if there is a lack of substance in communication. And that substance is what we traditionally understand to be part of the function of media, which is to add to the culture. [56:46] through the quality of communication, through the quality of writing, but also through the substance of what it said. So like, you know, I'm joking, I came on with like an unplugged in, [56:56] microphone. [56:57] You can see on TikTok and like part of this clip farm industrial complex, people who are

[57:04] going through the motions of media. [57:06] I'm sitting here. I have a headphones. I have... [57:09] a microphone. Am I saying anything of substance? Am I actually contributing to the cultural apparatus, the circulation of ideas? Like a lot of times, no. And you can get pretty far on like the face value of like, I'm participating in the structure. I have all of the, [57:26] I'm in a studio, I have everything that goes into having a media company or a media brand, but you could [57:31] you can fall short of achieving [57:33] um anything of substance or anything worth [57:37] paying for if you never really contribute anything to the culture. And I think like [57:42] there's an aesthetic theory of media and then there's like that deeper theory of media that people are starting to realize really matters. Like even going to some of the comments that have been put forward in, um, [57:53] like Emily Sundberg's Feed Me Yesterday, there's a lot of people [57:57] Guys, I don't know why you had to be anonymous, like respect, but like, if you can't even put your name on like your take Hollywood is over, which is like, [58:03] reheated nachos, like put your name on it next time. I'm sorry. That's my only criticism. So like when people are saying like bring back gatekeepers, what they're really saying is like, we've been in this era of like aesthetic [58:17] media. [58:18] We're missing the actual substance. Yeah. So anyway, I'm really not answering the question. Where I sort of differ with... [58:28] like the takes in that newsletter which were all accurate um and I was sort of just going back and forth on Twitter before I came on with like Emily Segal because I think she feels the same way having come out of

[58:39] and continuing to run her own business is [58:43] Okay, what about like distribution? Like, I think there's a lot of people who can really like look at the landscape and see these are the problems, but like to actually like leapfrog. [58:53] the next five to 10 years and like offer a vision of the future, which isn't just like everyone make your own sub stack and let the chips fall where they may. Like, that's very challenging. And frankly, I don't think [59:03] people would have a lot of incentive to do that or think about it if their business doesn't depend on it or they're not being paid to do it because like why would you I think people are trying to just enjoy what they can of what's left of the media that they like and sort of it's like a little bit of like a Dr. Strangelove like riding the missile down like I wake up every morning and like mentally I feel like that film image just like whipping the cowboy hat around but one more [59:33] So where I differ is like to actually talk about the distribution. And this is the thing that is the unlock for me. [59:40] and sort of like gets us out of just diagnosing like [59:44] bring back gatekeepers, blah, blah, blah. [59:47] You are the media now. [59:50] we're all talking about AI as the creator. We're not talking about AI as the audience. But if you include autonomous AI agents in the total addressable market for any new media company, suddenly it unlocks like a new audience category in a period where we felt like there have not been new audience categories for like at least a decade. First, it was the sort of like median

[1:00:20] their company. Now I'm proposing that there's going to be a new category of audience member, which is people with high agentic capital. [1:00:27] who might not necessarily represent the median population [1:00:32] person in their demographic like [1:00:35] you know, they're not the media equivalent of a person in a swing state or a flyover state. They don't necessarily have the most money. What they are going to be the best at is [1:00:45] taking [1:00:46] AI agents, consumer products that are available and using them, training them on their taste and using them to 10x their attention. [1:00:54] And ultimately, [1:00:56] if they're not spending more, being more efficient about [1:01:00] they're spent, paying for what they actually read by using the agent [1:01:04] as their delegate. This is agentic capital. So, [1:01:08] That is... [1:01:10] a really big idea. [1:01:11] right like that is a game changer and i also think it's easier for people to stomach like i i don't know i didn't really like read the response to mine somebody said it was like chewing on tinfoil i was like yeah that's what happens when you write for investors um like i'm sorry that happened i also saw everyone that said anything i get i was like i'm gonna punch this person at the end of the day everyone has to admit that i'm a great writer so [1:01:41] Like, I get it, like, it's not, [1:01:44] I can understand why it's not fun for people to think about, but I actually think this is a more palatable vision of the future for people who like don't want AI to be the creator. Because it's like, well, what if it's the audience? Like, could you accept? Yeah.

[1:01:54] that it's the audience and like, could you accept that that might provide an opportunity for you to monetize once your friends and family and lovers who pay $5 for your sub stack are maxed out because they're doing the same for like. [1:02:07] 20 other people that they're blanking. Not that that is. Okay. I just want to make, to illustrate sort of how this vision could work. Cause I think it's important for people to grasp what you're saying roughly is, or what I understood in the article is that you basically, I have my agent, I give them a allowance each month and that allowance, [1:02:37] spent across... [1:02:40] the things that it thinks that I will like after I have trained it on my taste and that might be [1:02:46] that might be five cents. That might be a micropayment to... [1:02:50] a sub stack or it might be a micro payment to a Netflix, [1:02:55] episode. But you're saying that like that [1:02:59] that [1:03:00] like spend gets distributed based on what the agent determines based on my. How much do you spend on [1:03:09] those categories of entertainment a month right now. [1:03:12] I think I spend [1:03:15] $125 a month. And do you think you're spending it efficiently? Are you spending the most on the stuff that you enjoy most? No, right? So it's like, [1:03:23] I'm sort of saying like I actually don't think we can

[1:03:26] increase [1:03:28] the size of your spend. [1:03:30] But we could ensure that [1:03:33] that it's [1:03:34] being distributed more efficiently. And if you can do that, that ultimately does increase the size of people's entertainment spend, but because it creates [1:03:45] habits and status [1:03:48] around being somebody who pays for what would otherwise be free, which is going to be, I think like this, there is something to this like clanker meme, right? Like we are going to look down on people who primarily consume [1:04:02] free stuff online. And it's not going to be classist because the barrier to entry to being somebody who pays for something online is a dollar or 50 cents. It's just not reflected right now or it's reflected in pockets like [1:04:17] OnlyFans or like giving somebody a weird ice cream on TikTok. And I should be able to do that for a subsect that I enjoy from somebody I'm not going to subscribe to. [1:04:26] Yeah. It's insane that I can't. And it's insane that I pay for Netflix every month, even months that I don't watch it. Yeah. [1:04:33] Yeah. Okay. I know we're over time and sadly we have to wrap here, but Daisy, I fear you might need to come back on. And so just put that in your heart, tuck it away, think about it later and we'll revisit it via iMessage at a later date. But just so respect the way that you think about these things and your creativity. And I was, I'll just leave it with this. Like I was left with a hopefulness after reading your piece. And I think there's a lot of content around the future of AI

[1:05:03] the future of media and the age of slop and like that you leave feeling, [1:05:08] really hopeless about where we're all headed. And I had a much more positive experience at the end of your piece. So that's my final thought. Oh, it's a dangerous thing for a woman. [1:05:24] Okay, Daisy. Thank you so much. This was fun. Kisses. I will see you. Bye, everybody. See ya. Okay. [1:05:31] There it is. All this out here. Bye. [1:05:35] Okay, that's our show this week. Join us live on Twitter every Wednesday at noon. Or here, I guess.