Ep: 227 - Boys Club Live with Zehra Naqvi (Lore.ai) and Megan Graham (Wall Street Journal), also covering Meta buying Moltbook, Distorted Emoji, Lookalike Competitions and more

[00:28] Here's this week's show. [00:31] you [00:33] Hi. Hi. It's so nice to be here with you. It's lovely. It's really weird. Honestly, we never do this. We never riff. We never riff. No. I mean, we riff on Slack all the time. Totally. But the one thing that... [00:48] Dina is not here, obviously. Rip. [00:51] Yeah. Again. It's been a little bit of a [00:55] Mercury in retrograde. It's Murphy's Law. [00:58] Murphy's Law. Okay. Yeah. Because you don't believe in astrology. I don't. [01:02] Sorry. Comment down below if you disagree. Okay. Thank you for being here, Kate. My pleasure. Whenever you need. Thank you. And we have a lot of fun things that we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about a company called Lore with Lore's founder, [01:21] Zara, we're going to have Megan on from the Wall Street Journal. [01:26] It's going to be really fun. Lots of really interesting things. Before we do that, there's a few things I want to talk to you about and get your take on. [01:33] um, [01:34] Okay, first off, [01:36] JFK Jr. lookalike competition. Have you been seeing this across the timeline? I have been seeing it. You've been seeing it? Okay. Yeah. [01:44] across the timeline. - Obviously. Okay. My understanding is that there was one in DC and one in... - Oh! I didn't even know that much. - Okay. Learning. One in DC and one in... [01:54] Well, Washington Square Park. Right. [01:56] - Where everything happens. - Where everything, where all the look like competitions happen. - Right. - I will say the one thing that I feel very aware of with it is

[02:06] that I've been seeing... [02:08] just in every way, shape, and form is... [02:11] Man. [02:13] Some people do not see themselves accurately. [02:15] - No. And I kind of love that. - Lord, give me the confidence of a man showing up. - I go out in the world, be to Lulu. - You encourage me to be more delusional constantly. - Thank you. - So I love that. - I love that for you. - Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. That's one thing. There's really not much there besides the fact that people are doing it. And I do feel fatigued by it. I have to be honest. I'm kind of ready. - By the lookalike competition? - Just generally. Yeah. - Okay. Or by the... [02:44] RFK Jr. [02:45] No, the RFK Jr. stuff, I... You can get behind. Do you like the style? I like... I love his style. Okay. Don't you? [02:53] I think it's good for society that he's gone viral. Okay. It's the quarter zip effect. Exactly. In a positive direction though, in my opinion. Okay. Yeah. You don't think so? No, I do. I'm like... [03:04] If it encourages others, [03:06] to dress nicely. [03:08] Sure. If you don't have your own personal style and you want to... But like a lot of people don't. Like Kate. I know they don't. I know they don't. And that's why we have stylists that are employed. Totally. But yes, I just think if people can... [03:24] If we can move the median... [03:26] for... [03:28] - Away from pajamas and towards- - And towards, exactly. - That's quite a jump, but I agree. [03:36] Yeah, but I don't need any more lookalike competitions. I'm done with those personally. Yeah. Count me out. Okay, the next thing I want to talk to you is MaltBolt. MaltBot.

[03:45] Moldbot was bought. Was bought. Yeah. That was off the dome. [03:51] Yes. Meta acquired Moldbot. And for those who do not know, Moldbot is basically a social media platform. [04:00] for bots. [04:01] They talk to each other. The bots talk to each other. And yeah, it was just acquired by Meta. Dina wrote the newsletter on it. So you should definitely... So subscribe to Malware. We'll put it on the screen. You can also just go to boysclub.beehive.com. That's right. And you can subscribe there. There's a lot of chatter on the timeline about it. People have many opinions. Some of the opinions that I've seen is that it's... [04:29] an indicator or further evidence that Zuckerberg doesn't have any AI strategy, and then people push back against that. And people love to talk. I will say this tweet that Dina included in the newsletter from [04:43] Nick Carter, who's a venture capitalist, he said, Malt's book... [04:48] - Wait, why are you? - I was like the backstreet boy? - No. Yep, he's weighing in. Malt's book, not Malt's bot, Malt's book was acquired. He said, "Malt's book is interesting conceptually, "but if you actually go read it, "it's torrents of the lowest quality slop "you've ever come across. "Not sure why everyone would be, by anyone who, [05:08] Not sure why anyone would willingly subject themselves to dead internet until some interesting [05:14] emergent behavior arises, it's useless. So I've seen that as well. And a lot of people are saying it's mostly just an acquihire because the creator of Maltbook

[05:24] is like obviously like has been working on ai projects for a long time is a [05:29] a very sought after engineer. And so all of that kind of feeds to that. So Meta now has that person. Yeah. It's mostly an acquirer. There you go. So that's some news. Um, [05:40] Anyway, comment down below how you feel about it. If you think Moult book is a good strategy or if Zuck doesn't know what he's doing. I love the comment. I love, you're so good at that. Okay. The last thing is the distorted face emoji. [05:54] - Oh, my favorite. - It's so good. I mean-- - I'm gonna do a cut down where I go, [05:59] I love the new distorted face emoji. [06:01] - And then it just goes through my face. - Great, great, great. Great. Clip that. - Also, here's where you can subscribe. Dina pulled it up. Thank you. [06:09] And to the newsletters, I have a really funny tweet that I, because I don't have Twitter on my phone anymore, I've just have got to get a new woman. I know I really am. I've got to get the screenshot over to my laptops. You're air dropping. Air dropping. I need to air drop it. But basically you. [06:30] We responded to something in Slack with the distorted face emoji. I was on the train, so it wasn't loading. So you could only see like, you know how there's like a preview that you see sometimes? Yes. It was only the preview. And I was like, don't even need it to load. I know what this is. [06:44] Anyway, that's how I respond to my emails. Yes. I mean, if you can get Kate to respond to an email, you can't you do you see these you can't it's it's an audio message in Slack if we're lucky. Okay, I Kate thanks for riffing with me for a bit. My pleasure. I want to talk about our

[07:04] Wonderful. [07:05] sponsors and partners for this live stream. I'm going to start with Octant and then we'll talk about Anchorage Digital in a little bit. But I think, [07:12] Octant is the supporting sponsor of this live stream. They are well known in Ethereum circles for their tireless contributions to the Ethereum ecosystem through research and millions of dollars in grants and public good funding. Heart, hands for sure. But in 2026, they are in their product era. Octant is now laser focused on vaults, which enables orgs and communities to build sustainable funding systems through their yield generating products. [07:42] or funnel it to broader ecosystem efforts. It's all fair game with Okten's new institutional grade vaults, earn, allocate and grow Ethereum with DeFi. [07:53] Octant is officially moving to Octant v2. Whoa. So all of your users, you can now experience their new app. And also don't miss out on migrating your GLM before April 1st. So that is coming up. Visit Octant app to learn more. We're also dropping a link in the chat. Go follow them. Octant app on x slash Twitter. [08:14] Okay, Kate, I think it's time for you to get back to the deck there. And we are going to bring up our first guest, which I'm so excited. Okay. [08:26] Sarah, come on up. [08:28] So nice to have you. Come on in. You might need to like pull that forward. There you go. Perfect. And then we also okay great. You're good. We've had some people who they really

[08:40] like lean all the way back and then their feet are dangling and it's quite um it's not like the best look for them [08:48] - There you go. - Great, perfect. - Great, great. Thank you so much for being here. It's so fun to have you. - Yeah. - You live here in New York. - Yeah, I live in New York. - Okay. - I live on the Upper West Side. I've been there for like nine years now. - Oh my gosh, no. - I refuse to live, like, leave that little cute neighborhood. - Okay, I did. I have a friend who lives on the Upper West Side, and I, [09:06] she's wonderful and i went to her neck of the woods the other night and i [09:11] It's so beautiful out there. It's so peaceful and fun and clean. And I love it. I just am like, I am getting to the point where I'm getting tired of like constantly having to go downtown. I'm trying to like convince my friends to spend more time just uptown with me. [09:26] But, you know, I hear that. Well, count me in any time. Okay, so we are here to talk about your startup. You are the founder of a company called Lore. Yeah. [09:37] And you guys had a big week last week. We can get into that in a second. You had an iconic launch video, which we're going to watch. But before we do that, before we do the launch video, I just would love to hear from you. What is lore? Tell us a little bit about it. Yeah. So our tagline or the way I would describe it is we're building the internet's home for obsession. That really kind of came from a place of me being a fangirl and realizing the like rabbit holing and obsessive tendencies [10:07] onto Google, like trying to read everything I could about a movie or like Hannah Montana is exactly the same as the stuff I do literally 18 years later as a 27 year old. Like, why am I still going onto Google?

[10:17] still opening a million tabs. And there's no actual place on the internet that has context on what I'm obsessed with. How's it possible I've spent like thousands of hours and I can't get, I can't find like a home for all of my fandoms. And so with Lore, our beta product that we released last week starts with tackling that. It tackles rabbit holing instead of having, having to open like a million tabs and feeling like you're almost like losing this context of yourself as you're going down the rabbit hole. You can do all of that in Lore. So Lore has this [10:47] like node-based interface. So every time you ask a question or search something, it kind of gives you a starting point. And then it allows you to keep going deeper into the rabbit hole. And it's like... [10:56] big visual landscape. - Cool, okay. I feel like it'd be helpful. [11:01] Kate, do we have the video? [11:03] up. I feel like I was watching video because it was really helpful for me to see sort of like, [11:08] just the visual world of it and sort of how it connects the dots of the things that you're interested in. So, wow, great. Okay, let's play it. The stories we love don't live in one place anymore. [11:24] Today, they live in fragments. Online threads, social media posts, [11:31] Billions of articles, all at the hands of an algorithm optimized for rage and attention. [11:40] Fandom. [11:41] is scattered. [11:43] But now, law can bring it all together into one space, designed just for you. For the first time in the history of the Internet,

[11:56] than curiosity. [11:57] as a single home. [12:02] You can follow a question [12:04] and see where it leads. [12:09] Parallels become visible. [12:11] and what felt like a hunch [12:14] is now undeniable. [12:18] Theories are no longer fleeting concepts. [12:21] Here! [12:22] They connect. [12:24] And they come alive. [12:28] Worlds expand. [12:30] and canon take shape. [12:37] Everything you're searching for found in one place. [12:41] This is the internet curated for the obsessed. This [12:48] is more. [13:06] Okay.

[13:41] Um, yeah. [13:43] get your your launch i think it's funny because like when i founded the company a year ago around like now ish i'm a solo non-technical founder and so i what i'm good at is like distribution and marketing and community and so i knew we were gonna do some sort of video but this was also like before launch videos were a thing i'm just i'm just gonna put that out there like even though even though it took us like a couple months to come out of stealth and everything i was thinking about it early yeah you're like i was first i think i think like my relationship with the whole [14:13] want to like universe build like lore isn't just to me like the beta product as it exists now there's so much that we want to do with it and I think showing our users who resonate with the problem we're solving like that we're we are them like we are fangirls building for other fans and we want to create not just like a platform that like kind of [14:34] solves the problem and then just leaves it at being software, we do want a world build. And so like our users, especially our like super users, they have like nicknamed all of our launch videos as like the lore cinematic universe. And there's like a void baddie who is in the launch video we released in October coming out of stealth. And then this is not a void baddie, but she's a lore baddie. She's probably going to get another nickname. And so like, I think like having that universe and having characters, it almost is just like, [15:01] if we're building a better platform to celebrate art and enjoy art and have a better place to have like secondary and tertiary reactions to like the primary source, it almost feels like the platform and the branding and the universe we're building should embody that too. So I think that kind of like...

[15:17] always consistently is the basis and the foundation for everything we do at Lore. And then I also need to shout out Evan, our CMO. He is like... [15:26] easily the most brilliant creative person I've ever worked with. And it's just like a testament to him. Like he edited the video. He like found the music. He was working with the voice of lore and getting him to like record everything and the intonations like this is really Evan's vision brought to life. Nice. It's so well done. Okay. So seeing the video, one of the things that [15:45] my understanding of what you're building and on our conversation here is that [15:50] Thank you. [15:51] Essentially, [15:52] I'm a user. I have... [15:55] Oh. [15:55] all these things that I'm obsessed with, that I'm Googling, that I'm looking at TikTok, like all these different, I'm on Reddit and all of these things are sort of living in their silos of where I've discovered them. Exactly. And your product is a way to not only have a more maybe like curated or holistic approach to certain things that I'm a fan of or that I'm obsessed with, but also sort of like a log and like a... [16:21] I think of the meme of the, the, it's always sunny guy. Exactly. Literally exactly that. And like drawing, helping, like showing connections. And then how much of it is like social? Like how much is going to be like, Oh, I'm obsessed with these things. And Kate is obsessed with like a version of this part of the story. And then like these things are being connected. Like how much is that part of the roadmap? So first I want to say the product as it is now, you like totally nailed it with the way that we kind of like foundationally have set the beta up.

[16:51] social platform where people are posting their theories directly into lore and then people are interacting with them whether that's comments likes posting stuff on your profile some of the future tools we're working on that were in the video like the builder ones of like the timeline creation and like posting your own theories that stuff we're working on now i think putting my vc hat on for a second and just thinking about like my prior life the the best thing that i got out of being a vc was understanding like how you are [17:16] build a product in a way that starts with kind of like the bare bones foundation and then start layering all of those things in. Yeah. A lot of people have tried to build new things for fandom, but they focused a lot on like the social component. There was like a company called Amino, I want to say over a decade ago. And they were like almost like a discord specifically for fandom. And it ended up not working out because like, if you think about the internet right now on Reddit, for example, 1% of users contribute and 99% just lurk. But like Reddit was designed [17:46] of their users. So we kind of wanted to flip it on its head where it's like if so many of these people [17:52] that are currently having this like fragmented experience, represent the 99% of users. Yeah. Why would we not start with a product that's designed for them to spend like [18:00] hours kind of like deep diving into lore and then almost like as lore learns about them and starts recommending stuff based on the fandoms you're in similar to like the pinterest recommendation algorithm then we start almost creating tools to like handhold or like convert a lurker into a contributor so okay for example like i've never [18:19] actually posted a theory on like a Marvel Reddit thread, but I totally could. I just feel like I don't have like,

[18:25] the skill set to be like, here's everything I read. Like, let me think about what I could actually like put in this Reddit thread that would be like value add. Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I want to talk about consumer AI with you. It's so hot right now. Everybody's, you know... [18:40] talking about it, great space to be building in. And obviously, [18:45] every single day there's new developments that are happening that are sort of changing the fabric of the internet and changing the fabric of how people are going to be [18:52] consuming, producing, creating online. - Yeah. - Yeah. [18:58] What do you think is overhyped? And what do you think is underestimated or understated right now? [19:04] I have like, I have a lot of thoughts here, which is why I'm like, I think two things. I think [19:12] people, it makes me sad that a lot of the companies that VCs will invest in, in the consumer AI world are the ones that separate humans and are also the ones that [19:25] promote AI slop. [19:27] or just like not human-generated content. Okay, can you give an example? Like the Sora, like, not that Sora is like, [19:33] I can't even think of like the names of these companies, because I feel like they're also interchangeable. But like anyone that does like... I think anyone that does like... fan fiction, like AI generation, where you put a prompt in, and then it builds like a whole thing. Okay. [19:48] - I think of those, I also think of like anything that is like very chatbot isolating, - Yeah. - in terms of just like talking to a chatbot, and that being all you're doing. - Okay. - Because for me, like with Lore, we...

[20:00] are using all the advancements that have happened in technology to actually just like, make it a more frictionless experience for people to discover other like human made content. Like I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan. And if someone published a PhD dissertation about Lord of the Rings, or like a newsletter on Substack that had like, [20:16] 100 views. I would want to see that. But with the way the internet's set up right now, like I'm, it's not going to be service to me. Like I can't just discover it. So for us, it felt really natural to use all this new tech to actually like go towards bringing more human con humans together, whether that's content, whether that's like down the line, social features. I just think it's, it's sad. It's understandable because a lot of those businesses will like generate revenue pretty much instantaneously the way like a consumer AI dating app will you just kind of like tell someone [20:46] pay this money, you got this chatbot that you can just talk to forever. But I feel like we never pause to think like, how does that help society? As like a Gen Z, I always think about my Gen Alpha like cousins, where I get concerned about like their ability to focus or like what their social skills are going to be like if they're attached to their iPad. And so... [21:03] I approach it now more from like a philosophical perspective and my frustrations with consumer AI. But I do think there are so many companies that are like utilizing tech in a way that actually does bring people closer together or just like works on solving a problem that like we actually need a good solution for and not almost like being predatory over like people who like want to have a chatbot that they can like talk to for hours. Because I just see no good in that. And I do think there is like a responsibility to do good.

[21:33] I can't speak to the whole industry. And I'm like on my soapbox right now. But that's like, that's how I feel about it. Okay. That makes sense. And I think what you're speaking to is how do these tools actually power a small internet? As opposed to that is... [21:48] that small internet being powered by [21:51] -actual people and their... - Yeah. [21:55] sort of [21:56] inability to break through the algorithm how is ai sort of helping people find that type of content [22:02] in the corners of the internet that have often made it really hard to do that. - Yeah. - And... [22:07] I, that's exciting to me. That's like a fun future to think about. [22:11] I also think like something that came to mind when you were talking is that like a Gaylor lore map would go so hard. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. We have so many requests for the new features to get dropped. Because right now, like with the current product, you could go on like down a rabbit hole and then like you could be 40 cards in about like the Gaylor lore and then actually like share that link with your friends. And then they could go down the rabbit hole that you went down. [22:41] And you can also like click on the sources that like each card pulls from and you can watch YouTube videos in lore. So like with the Gaylor stuff, like they get more and more specific, the YouTube videos that we pull from. And like there's also like timeline articles that you can read in lore. So yes, there's like there's a lot of requests and fun that we've been seeing our users kind of like using when it comes to just like building those little like theories and stuff. Do you...

[23:06] Do you describe it as a search engine? No, just because it's hard because I think people will like bucket us into like what it feels closest to. And I think that makes sense because it's like if you're putting, if you're inputting something and then getting an answer, like that's like a search thing. Yeah. But like sometimes I challenge it because this is such a like, I feel like VC pilled thing that I'm going to say. But sometimes I'm like, I see Laura Moore as like a dynamic consumption platform because you're like watching YouTube videos in it and you can pull up websites in it, whether [23:36] Wikipedia or like Britannica or like a 2008 blog post about The Shining. And then you can also see what Reddit like threads are being pulled from. So it feels more like we're reimagining the way people like consume content online, which is why like... [23:50] - Search kind of just, it doesn't feel, yeah, a little bit. [23:54] So a lot of the examples you've used have been around media. Yeah. Primarily. Or celebrity. Do you also see this in... [24:02] like an educational uh [24:04] track where it's like, okay, I really want to learn about [24:08] um, [24:09] I don't know, this geopolitical thing that's happening. And how do I like get down a rabbit hole? Yeah. And how are you thinking about that? And then also with that, [24:17] um [24:18] a lot of that is politicized. - Totally. - And how do you sort of like combat a rabbit hole that is, [24:25] radicalizing someone totally totally what I'm saying yeah no it's such a good question and I think deliberately because we are like a startup and I think we're not gonna have like we're not gonna like try and just like boil the whole ocean that is the internet like right now we are really focused on like entertainment media fandom stuff and sports just because eventually just because that is kind of like the world in which we can control a little bit and have like

[24:49] moderators and parameters that don't get to that point, at least with the stage of the company that we're in right now. And so that also kind of comes from me as like a founder looking at the ecosystem. And in the era of like AI, I think Google is getting unbundled. And [25:06] OpenAI, Anthropic, Perplexity, they kind of sit in like the objective world of what like Google would otherwise like cover. Typically there's like one question has one most correct answer. I think with lore, the reason we're so focused on like entertainment stuff is because the nature of the questions fans ask typically don't always have one correct answer. It's more like they just want to... [25:26] consume every answer on the internet. And so in the way that we're kind of building the product now, we are super focused on like entertainment and media because we can have those parameters and be a lot more strategic and safe with the content that Laura is like surfacing. But obviously, as we continue to expand and like raise more money, that's definitely a direction that we want to go in. And I think like starting with sports is kind of like, it's funny to use sports as like the gap between like entertainment media and then like real world stuff. But I do [25:56] as we like start to kind of veer into... [26:00] Yeah, I guess like, [26:01] sectors that focus a little bit more on reality. Also more current. Like I think there's a lot, I don't know, the world of Marvel or Lord of the Rings or I don't know, Harry Potter. Like those are, there's like some foundational sections. And with sports or other things like that, it's so moment to moment. And there's a lot of, I guess, variety around that. Totally. Okay. So we have only a few minutes left here. I wanted to spend some time,

[26:29] One last actually question about the consumer AI stuff. I think [26:35] a lot of the reading that I've been doing around consumer AI is that there's sort of like three different buckets of how... [26:40] People are using... [26:42] these tools, what the utility is, basically. And one is, like, utility, one is novelty, and one is identity. And when I think about your product, I think it's mostly around identity and novelty. But I'm curious, out of those three buckets, like, what do you think you're prioritizing and building for? I think, like... [26:59] This is going to sound weird, but especially because it's the one that you didn't mention, but I actually see Lore, at least with the features and the products we're building now as a utility product. Because again, if you look at the video and some of the stuff that we plan to put out, it is almost like these crazy like timeline builders and just like the ability to like [27:17] mind map something kind of like what you would do in like a figma if you had all the time to like get all the information about taylor slips albums and all the information about like who she was who she's been dating and like overlay that on each other so i do kind of see us as a utility tool at least right now okay but the thing is like because we are building for fandom identity is just like such an inherent part of it it's almost like people don't come to lore for the utility unless they have that identity associated with like the fandom so i'd say we're like a [27:47] between those two. But I do think we're going to release like fun features when like Avengers Doomsday is coming out or just like any, like we had a lot of requests for doing like traders, like bets on who would win and stuff. And so I think there's just kind of like, there's fun things to do where it's like, you could place your guess of who you think is going to win The Bachelor, like week one when it comes out. And then you'll be able to like compare everyone after. Yeah. Well, there's a lot there, I think, with just like the identity and fandom behind everything.

[28:17] that kind of is the baseline for it all. Okay, great. Last question here. You are a self-described person. [28:23] um, uh, uh, [28:25] obsessed chronically online and we obviously [28:28] feel the same. We're trying to do some work to undo that for our mental health. But we also love the internet and have so much fun going down rabbit holes and getting really obsessed with things. What are some things that you're [28:41] obsessed with right now? I think right now, very specifically the Hannah Montana reunion episode that's coming out in, I think like 10 days. What's her face? Alex, uh, Alex Cooper. Yeah. It's like doing the interview and stuff. I'm like very, I don't even know if that's chronically online. I think that's just like Gen Z childhood, like coming back. That's just fandom. It's literally just fandom. I think like we do not have time to talk about all this, but we, Laura's [29:11] And it's a very intense Oscar season, just given like, we didn't even talk about film stuff, but like obviously like cinephiles and film fandom is like a huge thing too. And there's just, I think in the chronically online world, like seeing everything that's happening in the discourse with like Timothee Chalamet and like the arts in general, that is something I've been obsessed with. I need to go down a rabbit hole about it all on lore, but I do, it's like frustrating to see sometimes someone like use their platform to like disparage other art forms, especially when it could like discourage someone [29:41] seeing him say something about it. But I also think it's like similarly hilarious how outside, how much coverage this like conversation is having. It's just like, that is probably the one rabbit hole that I want to spend like a ton of time going down. Cause I spent like last month was like Wuthering Heights for me. I went down like the most aggressive rabbit hole. I've never read the book. I watched the movie and I was like, I love this movie. And then Charlie XCX's music. Great. And then I went down the rabbit hole and I was like, I had no idea all of the lore behind

[30:11] There's just a lot to explore. With the Timothee Chalamet ballet opera drama, my take that I saw on the internet is that it's... [30:23] a PSYOP. [30:24] And that like, because now there's like all these lines that are forming outside of Lincoln Center and all these people are now like going to the ballet and talking about the ballet. And I don't know, he's so like performance art, [30:35] peace type guy and like so calculated that i'm like [30:39] I don't know. I don't really buy that he's going to say something that he doesn't know will have like the ramifications of everybody talking about on the internet. But it's also in that family unit, the Kylie Jenner Vanity Fair spread. [30:53] is iconic. It's so good. - I don't know if this was either on Pooh Crave or Pop Crave, because there's a distinction. - It's happened to me so many times. - But I saw something, like a quote from her saying, "I've been sent so many scripts, like, who knows, the next time you talk to me, maybe I'll be the lead in an action movie." - No, no, that was it. - She said it. Okay, because I was like, if she actually said this, it's so funny. And if it was Pooh Crave, then I'm like, "I need to put my glasses on." - No, no, for real. You're like boomer. - Yeah, I'm like, "Hello." - Okay, well, this was so fun. [31:23] Thank you so much for coming. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Laura, sign up for the beta. You can sign up for the beta on our website, laurobsessed.com. [31:32] And then also you can find us on Instagram, Twitter at Laura Obsessed. Great. And there's a ton more there for you guys. Thank you so much. It was so fun to have you. Thank you guys so much for having me. Okay. As we move to our next interview here, I am going to...

[31:48] Thank our next... [31:51] Amazing partner for this live stream Anchorage Digital. They are the best founders and protocol builders stressing about your TGE. You need to get in touch with Anchorage Digital. The first, they are the first federally regulated crypto bank in the US, which means they can offer [32:07] crypto startups and other disruptors actually reliable USD banking services without the usual headache. They're a one-stop shop and can support you end-to-end on everything from minting and distribution to treasury management. Anchorage Digital has expanded institutional access to on-chain finance. New integrations with Camino, Onsolana, and Morpho allow clients to execute borrowing and vault strategy directly from the safety of their federally regulated platform. [32:37] TGE with confidence and launch with the supports [32:40] Launch with the support that has helped some of the biggest, most complex businesses in the world go to market. Visit Anchorage.com to learn more. And we have a link in the chat as well. So thank you, Anchorage. We love you. Okay. [32:57] Our next guest is here. Hi, come on down. Great to meet you. [33:03] Thank you for being here. [33:05] um okay you might need to pull this out and then back in great great great great and then [33:14] Great, great, great, great. Is this okay? Yeah, yeah, but get comfortable and then we can set you up.

[33:22] Get cozy. Do you go by Meg or Megan? I go by Meg, but my violin is Megan. So it doesn't matter. Okay. Either way. Okay. Great. How are we on sound you guys? [33:33] great okay good um so nice to meet you i'm natasha i'm so excited to talk to you so uh megan graham you write about advertising and marketing you're a reporter for the wall street journal and you have written some very fun things recently so i want to get into them so okay [33:52] First off, you wrote about [33:55] So Nova Nordisk is a pharmaceutical company. I know, it's such a tongue twister. It's such a tongue twister. And I'm like, I've read it so many times. Before you came, I was like, Nova Nordisk. Well, and they were doing a Super Bowl ad and Novartis. Okay. And so my editors were like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm like, no, they're two separate companies. Yes, yeah, yeah, totally. They're a pharmaceutical company. They ran an ad in earlier this year, beginning of this year. January, yeah. January, and you wrote an article on it. And then it actually went viral on TikTok and Twitter like this week. [34:25] were ahead of the game. We're going to say it here first. You knew what was up. And basically, the ad was a remake of the very famous PC versus Mac ad with Justin Long and John Hodgman. John Hodgman. Okay. And they basically did that for like Ozempic versus other GOP ones. Can you tell us a little bit about that article? Absolutely. So basically, if you remember the ads, like this was when I was a teenager. So I kind of remembered them, but not much. But they're kind of showing

[34:55] what you can do with a PC. So they were sort of reprising this and saying, well, and I'm not going to be able to tell you the precise like FDA guidelines. [35:04] No problem. Not medical advice. [35:07] Don't take my exact word for it. But basically, Ozempic has a couple additional FDA indications. So they're allowed to say we help with it's something like compounding risk of, you know, worsening kidney disease and then something like something with heart disease as well. Okay. [35:23] it's kind of been like the Kleenexification of a word, right? Where it's like, we all say Q-tip, but you know, there's only one Q-tip. Yeah. Where Ozempic is the word, like the catch-all word that everybody uses. Yeah. And they're saying, well, that's kind of great for us from a branding perspective because everyone knows the word. [35:40] but they're saying our product is different and better than the, you know, generics that are out there too. Yes. So in the ad, [35:48] Justin is like, "Well, I'm Ozumbic. I can say this and this." Like, we have the ability to say, and by the way, I should mention, [35:55] This is for people who are taking it for type 2 diabetes. Okay. So it's a little different. And I know people are like, just like joking about it and everything, but it is for that kind of precise use case. Okay. When you're taking it for diabetes, you can say like, this drug is better for these two things. I see. Okay. Yeah. And- [36:13] I watched the ad. [36:14] And [36:15] what's very bizarre about it is that it's three-ish minutes, and them talking is maybe 45 seconds. I know. And then it's, like, two minutes of him reading, like, legalese about the...

[36:29] the... [36:30] substance and all of the downsides. And it's like shock. It was like actually shocking. Like I was skipping through and I was like, Oh, it's just this for the rest of the ad. Um, and part of me is wondering, okay, [36:42] I was shocked that they could do this ad because it felt... [36:44] So I don't know, just, do you know what I mean? - I do. And so, okay, there's a bunch of different cuts of it as well. So like the one that's going viral. Yeah, that's a long one. And then like John's in the background eating popcorn, which is kind of funny. - Yes. Yes. - It is funnier than most pharma ads, right? Like some of them are, they're like, [37:00] driving on the highway and like holding hands through the park. And this one, they're like, we're just trying to talk to you like a person. Yeah. Which I appreciate. Like most pharma ads are really boring. But yeah. So for certain, there's so many laws about what you can do in a pharma ad. And if you're making certain claims, then you do have to do all the side effect information. Okay. So they did do a couple of cuts where it's like, [37:22] I think like 15 seconds or whatever. [37:24] where they don't make, I don't remember like exactly which claims they make in which, but they don't have to go into that. Okay. So they kind of like setting up the joke, but it's supposed to be more of like a well-rounded like campaign where it's like, okay, hopefully you'll see the longer version if you're watching. And I don't know where that was running, but it's on, as you said, like social media, some versions are running and then some of them are just on like streaming or on TV. Yeah. And you do tend to see like the longer versions on streaming. And I'm sure... [37:49] what they wanted to happen. [37:51] what's happening now is what they wanted to happen, where people are clipping it and cutting it down and it's going on TikTok and like all of the... [37:58] regulatory hugging that is happening on the actual ad gets washed away because...

[38:05] it's um it's me on tiktok like cutting it down basically and then that kind of does the thing that they're wanting it to do i feel like yeah i think so too and and it was funny like talk because i interviewed the actors and i i just like i've never heard of any he's like i had to like figure out how to because he's like the nice thing is i can read it like yeah because they just put it yeah he was on like a yeah yeah like a i don't know pedestal or something yeah he's like well i thought they were just gonna like record me saying he's like no they don't film the whole [38:35] But yeah, as you said, like, and I think it's getting a lot of flack. [38:40] but I don't think it's getting flack from people who it's more intended for. Like I saw a tweet [38:45] from a guy, I'm assuming he's like in his 50s. Like I think the elder millennial younger Gen X generation is kind of like who this is geared toward. Like most of the kids on TikTok were not alive when this ad was coming out. And I don't think it's really for them. I think it's more for this more like health, less... [39:03] I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I'm just assuming this is more for like the health piece of it, less for the weight loss piece of it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And that distinction I think is really important. And honestly, I didn't know until... [39:14] Like, I read your article and I talked to you, and like, I... [39:18] Ozempic has become [39:19] so ubiquitous with weight loss that I think most people in like the zeitgeist [39:24] Forget that it's actually for like medical use. Exactly. For... [39:28] uh, [39:29] Type 2 diabetes. Okay. And that's what this ad was about. Not like [39:33] And I do think, um,

[39:36] Yeah, it's interesting just pharmaceutical ads in general. I so rarely like sit down and watch TV. And over, I can't remember what it was. It was, oh, New Year's. I was with some friends and we just like kind of had the TV on and like sports were playing. And... [39:51] And I was so shocked by how like every other ad was a pharmaceutical ad. And I was just like, oh my gosh, we're over medicated. Like I was just like, this is kind of shocking. And but to your point, like most of them are really uninteresting and really depressing. And like, it's usually like you're depressed or you're dying and like here's some things to do about it. And I'm like, whoa, it's crazy. [40:21] and I don't know if there were so many Pharma Super Bowl ads, and like that is always a question people ask. [40:27] But it is true that these days... [40:29] Like people are really kind of responsible for their health. You know what I'm saying? Like they are the ones kind of going to their doctor and saying like, I want to try this. You know, I have friends who have gone to their doctors and said, I'm interested in trying this particular, you know, weight loss or what have you, um, or migraine drug or whatever. So they, these brands like really do want to be, they want you to think of their name and that's why they have all the dumb jingles and everything. Cause they want your, their brand name to what you think of. And also I think, uh, in the age that we're living in, [40:59] everybody is self-diagnosing and we're using all of these LLMs to basically be our general practitioners. Like even more so, I think that these pharmaceutical companies are going to lean on advertising and marketing as a way to

[41:11] to do exactly that. Yeah. And I don't know how familiar you are with this, but like they are, like this administration is trying to, [41:17] um ban [41:19] pharma advertising on TV, which would be really interesting. Yeah. Um, I heard about that maybe like a year ago. Um, so it's been a, it's been a minute, but, um, but that would just mean, like you said, like LLM, like all of these other means of, of reaching the consumer directly. Um, they're, they're going to have to be creative if that ends up happening and I don't know if it will. So, okay. Um, okay. I want to move on to, uh, Equinox AI slop campaign. Yeah. Um, you just wrote about this campaign, uh, the, in the last few weeks. It's great. I love the article. [41:49] Tell us a little bit about the campaign. - Yes, so this was our New Year's campaign actually. [41:53] It was basically, if you saw it before they explained it, like they kind of had a soft launch of it. They were, I think it was Twitter and LinkedIn and Instagram. And it was just these like nuts stuff. [42:05] AI images where you were like, I'm going to show a few of them. I think, um, where it was like, what, there's one of, um, Justin Trudeau pole dancing. Okay. There's a steak is like, so I see this and I'm like, this is insane. Like, what is this? And then they launched the kind of [42:25] tagline, which was, I think it's something like, "Believe in nothing, question everything, except yourself." - Okay. - The problem with it was, [42:32] So when I talked to their CMO, she was like, yeah, we've been rolling it out. And like, we're getting a lot of negative commentary about it because people do have such a negative, like, it is funny. Like you said, everyone is going to LLMs for everything.

[42:45] everything, right? [42:47] asking intensely personal questions asking you know how do i like help me come up with a training plan for whatever i know i know a girl who did a training plan for the marathon using yeah an llm um a really funny tweet just as an aside that i saw this morning uh was next uh woman next to me on the train is asking chat gpt how to suggest non-monogamy to her husband probably don't even need to tell you which train line either so yeah people are really getting intimate with it yes in [43:17] with it too but anyway [43:18] Despite that, people... [43:20] hate it when they see it used by companies for ads, right? There's like a complete [43:26] - Visceral. - Yes, visceral aversion to it. And so when they were just seeing that, they were like, "You're better than this. Like, this is not about your brand." [43:34] I really thought like the whole thing was very smart because they're using something that they knew people would have an emotional reaction to and then kind of flipping it on its head and saying, yeah, we're in on the joke. Like we're not using this as great advertising. Um, but unfortunately, I feel like it kind of got away with it. And that was like the feedback that I got just like on LinkedIn or whatever. I'm sure they got great. Like I did hear people who really liked it, but I do just think that there were so many people who were like, I hate that people are using it at all. Um, [44:01] I think also, I mean, it's interesting that they did this. To me, and you wrote a little bit about this in your article, but like the Equinox New Year's campaign... [44:10] ads are iconic. Like every year I like notice them and they did one a few years ago.

[44:17] that was like commit to something. And like, that is seared into my brain. Like I will make the joke all the time, like commit to something. And like, I am, it's a callback to the Equinox ads and people like, what are you like? It's truly like this, it was like a powerful and like the imagery is always like beautiful and like really sexy. And I think part of, [44:41] what and and it is always like quite visceral yeah visceral either it's like because it's so sexual or because it's like i don't know they just always have that reaction yeah and this i think was like so disgusting like most of them were kind of gross like where you're like i don't really want to look at that and i wonder if that's also part of it and i think that it's interesting that the [45:02] hatred for AI and for AI advertising is [45:07] So, and AI in creative in general, I think it's like really powerful, but we were actually going to talk about this, but Sexy Red just came out with a new music video. Okay. [45:16] And she's like very overtly using AI. And it's really camp. And it's like very funny. And the reaction that I've seen from a lot of people, mostly people who do not work in tech, [45:26] who work in music or like culture in New York have been like, I love this. Okay. Like, it's so fun. You'll have to watch it. And I, yeah, I'm, it's interesting to me, like who can get away with it and who can't. And, and it's feeling like, [45:41] just a huge risk either way. I completely agree. I really think like it, it depends [45:46] I do think there's a risk in a brand doing it because people are just critical of advertising in general. Yeah. So I think...

[45:52] There has to be something in some brands that, [45:55] are very fluent in social media, and I feel like there's brands who could pull it off. - Yeah. - But it is risky. And again, I don't want to say everyone hated it, but-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I do think it was just controversial. - Totally. Okay. [46:06] She mentions in your interview that they did not reach out to Trudeau or the Pope. [46:11] to use their likeness. Did that surprise you? It did. Okay. Um, [46:16] And and their their kind of POV was [46:19] Well, you know, we're diving into like uncharted territory and we'll see what happens. As far as I know, I don't think there was any problems. The Pope one. Okay, that was the Pope who's no longer living. But yeah, with Trudeau, I was like. [46:33] I kind of wonder if he was still prime minister, if that would have been a bigger issue. But there's going to be some real issues with this, I think, as we go on. And most advertisers are way more gun shy. Like, I think most brands would not have done something like that just out of risk of we don't want to deal with a lawsuit. Totally. So maybe they just felt confident enough. But I think there's going to be some super interesting things. [46:56] issues like this in the future. - Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's just a matter of time. - Yes. - Okay, I want to talk about the next one is the DoorDash campaign. [47:05] that you interviewed their head of social and they're doing some really fun stuff. Yeah. And I love to see brands [47:16] do what they're doing, but I'll let you sort of explain, like, what are they up to? What was the conversation about? [47:20] Oh, yeah. There's one example. The one of the Traders guy. Rob Roush. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So we're going to play that. We won't hear it, but they'll be able to hear it.

[47:30] This is my friend Rob and he's going to tell you about some snakes so you better be nice! This is a rat snake. There are many different species of rat snake all across America. [47:40] You may see them in your backyard. They usually don't look like this. [47:43] captive bred one. [47:45] Uh... [47:46] there's a lot of them out there, they're friendly, [47:48] They're not gonna hurt you. [47:50] And you shouldn't kill them, you should let them live. [47:52] happily [47:53] and they'll keep it. [47:54] away from your [47:56] Hence the name of [48:00] Okay, are we back? [48:03] Okay. Okay. So we watched the one from the, Ryan, what's the name? Why can't I remember? Rob. Rob. Okay. Regular guy name. Regular guy name. Very generic guy name. The snake one. So talk to us about what they're up to over there. Okay. So it sounds like you do not watch Traders. Okay. This is so funny and embarrassing. So I am not a big reality TV type person, [48:33] time. And I went on a trip with the two of them and my friend Katie watches like literally all, like every housewife thing, like she's locked in. Yeah. And I, [48:42] I, and she was like, we should watch "Traders." And so the three of us decided to watch "Traders." - Okay. - And I'm like on my computer. Like, I'm not really paying attention. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. This season? - This season. - Okay. And so I had some contacts for like episode one, - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - and some of the players, and like whatever. [48:58] And then [49:00] I didn't follow it at all. Okay. And then I have deleted social media off my phone. I only look at it on... For you. Thank you. It's my entire personality now. I tell everybody.

[49:10] And I only look at it on a desktop. Yeah. And my algorithm has gotten... [49:14] totally out of whack because of it. Because like I'm not... [49:17] - Like training it every day. - Yes, right, right, right. And so for some reason, my Instagram decided that I was a huge Traders fan. - Okay. - And that I need to see everything that's going on with that show. And part of what it was continually showing me was... [49:31] that who won, which is like spoiler alert. I know. That he won and how he won in that moment between them or whatever. Yeah. So I watch it and then I send a voice note to my friend Katie and I'm like, Katie, I'm hearing this is like the most iconic win ever. Like da da da da da. And I keep talking. I like send it to her. [49:48] And then I was like, oh my gosh. [49:50] And then I was like, wait, have you seen it? And she was like, no. And I was like, oh, like she was waiting to-- I spoiled it for her. I spoiled it for her. That's amazing. She didn't get-- I mean, it was everywhere. I know. She's not really on social media. So I was like, I can't believe I didn't even watch this show. And I spoiled it for her, basically. But she was pretty cool about it. But anyway, I know. [50:09] He's a Love Island guy. Yes. Okay. Yes. So basically, I am a nut for reality TV. Cool. I love it. I love that. And so... [50:18] And I spend a lot of time [50:19] on social just [50:20] Honestly, I'm like, I'm looking for story ideas, but just [50:23] just doing my thing. And I was noticing a couple DoorDash [50:30] ads, like social ads. And I'm like, this is genuinely so good. There was one that they did, and we'll probably get into it, but with Z-Way. And then there's a bunch of guys in it. And she's basically running a bad boyfriend boot camp. And Wes Wilson from...

[50:42] Summer House is in it. Okay. And he kind of famously... [50:45] - Is a bad boyfriend? - Screwed over. - Okay. - Sierra Miller, who was, this like happened a couple of seasons ago. - Okay. - But I saw that and I'm like, oh, this is so good. I'm like sharing it. - Yeah. - And I'm like, to do that in this day and age, [50:58] is such a feat because to get people to like, [51:03] honestly like tolerate marketing at this point. Like it has to be really good. Right. And then, let alone share it like that. Yeah. And so what they're kind of doing is like, not just being like, like, they're like, we want to actually have content that people [51:16] like we're furthering the conversation like what is this person doing or like let's give them a moment um that's kind of in this site guys so i i saw that i was like i just want to talk to them about what they're doing so zaria who is doing the social media she came from duolingo okay and they oh my gosh yeah like yeah they kind of iconic work that they've done and they kind of [51:35] It was, what's the word? Oh, unhinged. Like they're kind of like the pioneer of unhinged marketing. And so she's been doing a lot of that at DoorDash, but they obviously just have a different take on it. Yeah, totally. [51:46] So yeah, I just talked to her about their strategy and you have a small team. It's eight people. [51:51] It's like eight, I think it's nine, including her. Okay. So they have some people who are, you know, in the weeds, like watching everything. Yeah. They have some people who are kind of like dealing with brands and all that good stuff. Okay. And so they just have really figured out the machine to make this really good. And it's quick. That's the other thing. Yeah. [52:09] Most brands I talk to take forever to get this stuff out the door, right? Like they, they do something and then it's legal and then it's legal again. And then it goes back and then whoever, like then CMO is looking at it and it just, it's in the moment, like totally passes. It's like you, you saw those brands who were doing Barbie stuff like last year and you're like, no, no, no, no. Like that was over two years ago. Like you needed to get it out. Right. But that's just how long it took. And that just doesn't fly anymore with consumers these days. Like you, it has to be like

[52:38] that day. Otherwise it's done. Like, don't even bother. Yeah. So, and I think what's incredible about their strategy is like, [52:44] - It has nothing to do with DoorDash. - Yeah. Like literally nothing. Like this guy's like playing with his... [52:48] snake and you're like, oh, I'm watching it. And this is funny. And like, and I do think that takes a level of, uh, risk tolerance. A hundred percent. And, and that's the thing too, where it's like, most brands do not have that risk tolerance. So what they, which is just unusual for me, like I, most brands I talk to right now, [53:08] marketing budgets are, they're like, you need to explain every single dollar. Like, where is this going? What is the ROI of this? And there's just this complete obsession with data and everything. [53:18] And I think that that does work with some brands and you do see brands where they're like, every single thing that we do, like, you know, we got, we back it up and we know this, but it doesn't feel like you're, you're like, we're watching it and you're like, like, this is not good. Like maybe you'll buy something, but so they're taking a completely different approach and they just don't know if it's going to work. So that'll be interesting. And like, I had people commenting, I posted this on LinkedIn and some people being like, [53:43] well, this is ultimately for not if this doesn't generate sales. But I kind of disagree because [53:50] you have how many options these days you have seamless and uber eats and i know they own a bunch of other things [53:56] they're kind of all offering unless you have like a bad experience with one of them. [54:00] It really comes- Yeah. Yes. And like everyone- [54:03] has different stories about whatever. But if you've had neutral experiences with all of them, it's going to come down to like,

[54:09] the one that you think of, right? And like the goodwill that you have about a brand. And so if you are sitting there and you're like, "All things considered, [54:17] Price is the same. I'm going to go with the one that I think is kind of funny. Totally. That's just the way people think. Totally. I think one of the things... [54:24] that you wrote about that was compelling to me as a marketer is that DoorDash, there's a flip. [54:31] where social becomes a place for insights instead of a place for distribution yeah and if that's [54:38] the lens in which you as the CMO of DoorDash are viewing your social channels, like what can we learn about our customers as opposed to how do we continually sell them on this buying this burger through us, then [54:51] The... [54:52] creative brief for the social team is very, very, very different. And I think a lot more fun. And so, yeah, I wonder if you have anything else to... [55:02] We still see so many brands... [55:04] on TikTok, for instance, taking their TV commercial and cutting it down [55:09] to 30 and putting it in people. And that doesn't, it's just completely like screaming into the void. There's nothing. [55:15] that just is completely, you're blasting things out. Whereas I think smart brands these days have like a push and pull, like they're right there listening and there's something like, [55:24] a brand like Elf, for instance, does so good at this. They have like their CEO go on TikTok live and be like, what are some things that we could be doing? Like, what do you guys want us to make? And like, that's, [55:35] taking feedback from consumers and actually making a product like that. That is the height of this. Totally. And so I think that is

[55:43] brands that are not doing this well are going to have a tough time winning with [55:48] younger consumers now because they don't care and they don't have to sit it's so funny when i talk to [55:55] like young creators or younger people, they're like, no one watches TV anymore. I'm like, well, that's not really true, but you guys don't. So that's telling of where the moms of, you know, and dads of the future are going to be thinking about media. So totally. [56:11] yeah so i i just think that that's gonna be a need to be a major change or these brands will [56:16] either cease to exist or just struggle to [56:19] stay relevant. - Yeah, I also think, [56:22] It comes back to, it all comes back to Kylie Jenner and Vanity Fair, but in that article, she- I'm always saying this. They talk about, they set up sort of, [56:33] the... [56:35] reach of her audience. And they're, they, the amount of followers that she has on Instagram is more than the population of the United States of America. Like to think about that is crazy. And then they talk about how this one moment where she and Stassi, her friend are like sharing a bag of chips and she posted a story about it. And [56:52] It was like some 65 million people watched that. And then to give context, they were like, [56:57] Charlie Kirk, like 25 million people watched this thing about Charlie. [57:01] Just to give some context for the amount of reach this person has. And I think [57:05] That is... [57:07] that [57:08] is telling of where the attention economy is and where...

[57:14] consumer insights are and that being a totally [57:18] Like it's not new, but I think brands have been really slow to understand these channels for what they're best at. And it seems like what they're up to over there has, they're taking some... [57:31] risk to do that. - Totally. And I, like, for instance, I asked them, they did a tweet, a Bad Bunny related tweet. - Yeah. - As you remember, [57:39] That day, I'm sure most brands were like, we're not going to touch that because we don't know how... [57:46] whatever percent of our audience is going to think. And they basically said, like, Zaria said, we're just going to assume, I think she said like 15 to 20%. Yeah. I think 10 to 15% negative. Okay. Thank you. Um, is going to be negative. And, and, and, and, [58:01] As you know, there's... [58:03] negative sort of Twitter [58:06] you know, language and chatter that gets really blown out of proportion. But you can't listen to everything. [58:13] you know and and so i mean and i get negative comments too [58:17] where people say, and I'm like, okay, this is going to ruin my day. But honestly, it can't because [58:22] they're not always right. You can't listen to that. And I think that 10 to 15% negative sentiment, [58:27] as being what is acceptable is a really helpful framework to be approaching these things. And, um, even coming back to the Equinox stuff, like we probably wouldn't be talking about it if it had been sort of just like a fine ad, like that is the weird sort of rage baby internet that we live in today. Um, and how powerful like negative sentiment can be for your brand. Yeah.

[58:48] And like I said, like, I thought that they... [58:51] threaded the needle perfectly with that. Like I thought that the resolution [58:55] was so good so i think that they probably are like [58:57] Oh. [58:58] Yeah, I also think... One of the things that's interesting to me about DoorDash is that it is publicly traded. And so they're... [59:07] that feels... [59:09] weightier and I'm curious if [59:11] you, if that speaks to like their credibility, if that, you know, [59:16] I don't know, like, did she talk about that at all? - She did talk about, 'cause I said, so something like the Bad Bunny. [59:23] tweet are you going to your cmo or ceo to do something like that because think about if you [59:29] the biggest advertising day of the year. Yeah. And something happens that, you know, [59:35] gets you canceled for the day totally your ceo is going to be not happy right like calling for heads and in that situation she said no i i sent it after it was up and it was already getting good traction that is just kind of unheard of i mean that was very interesting but yeah absolutely i mean with public companies [59:53] I mean, honestly, most marketers, yeah, like they're especially on a day like that. [59:57] in such a [1:00:00] kind of fraught situation where there was so much negative language. So charged, yeah. So charged. Most brands would not take that risk. Yeah. They just, I think, [1:00:09] they have such a top to bottom like [1:00:12] trust with each other and their marketing. I just think they have very good like lines like this is where we can play and [1:00:18] As she said, if we mess up, we delete it and move on with her. It's just so unusual. So that's a good approach to life. Just I know. Have you seen the Pine Saw TikTok?

[1:00:30] um not for a while wait i was seeing it's crazy i don't know kate if you can pull up a image but they're doing some wacky wacky stuff over there um and it's like i don't know like um [1:00:44] like a banana dancing like okay i'm just gonna pull a picture for you really quick um [1:00:51] so that you have like some sense for what they're doing. It's just very weird. Like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's very brain rot. It's very gen alpha. It's really, really fun. And maybe this is the next profile a hundred percent because like 230,000 followers on TikTok for a cleaning brand. And I think again, it's just like, [1:01:16] those brands stand out in these moments. Okay, we're almost out of time. What is your, no, I'm so happy to talk to you. What is one of the things that you're like obsessed with on the internet right now? [1:01:27] Okay. I just read, have you read Strangers by Bill Burney? Okay. It's everywhere. Yeah. Okay. Is it good? It's so good. Is it like, why is it? Why is it good? So I know I always have like a bunch of memoir and I just listen to them. This is a memoir book. It's a book. Yes. It's a memoir. [1:01:43] Um, it's, it's this woman whose husband has an affair and leaves her. [1:01:48] But it turns out she's from like Paley family royalty. Okay. He's from like Vanderbilt family. So they're kind of these science. It's a true story. It's a true story. Oh my gosh. Okay. Wow. So yeah, basically he has an affair. He's like, works at hedge fund. Okay. Anyway, the book is very, very good. Very well written. And she reads the audio book. Okay. Um,

[1:02:09] So now I'm deep in New York socialite Reddit. - Oh fun, oh so fun. - It's so juicy. And I'm on Reddit all the time. Like I love like influencer snark, I love all of it. But this is like a new, it's like a whole world has been opened for me. - Cool. - So yeah, honestly, do you listen to audiobooks? - I don't, but I run a book club. - Okay. - And half of them do. So maybe this is our book for the next. - And you could read it too. I just enjoyed Lisp 'cause she reads it. - Yeah. - And it just, [1:02:38] it feels podcasty. Like it was very, very good. Okay, great. I'm going to throw it to the, we do like a little poll on our next book and we just finished, um, [1:02:48] Oh my God. What did we just, oh, Heart the Lover. Okay. Incredible. Yes. Anyway, that's on my list too. We're looking for our next book. Okay. Megan, thank you so much for coming. I love your work. I think you make marketers better and I'm so happy to have had you and you're welcome back anytime. Thank you so much. This is so fun. Okay. That's it for today. So we can... [1:03:10] Thank you to Octant and Anchorage Digital.