Ep 189: MALWARE. The State of Social Media with Lydia Pang, Co-founder of MØRNING

[00:00] Malware is a non-technical look at the tech news of the week. This is a podcast where we learn together about everything from crypto to AI to whatever comes next in tech. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. [00:18] The boys club podcast. No, no. [00:20] Just boy stuff. [00:22] We have a very special malware here. [00:24] We do. Um, [00:26] Go ahead. [00:27] Give it up. Give it up. We talked with Lydia Peng, who is the founder of Morning Agency. If you don't know Morning... Morning.FYI. Morning.FYI, yeah. Very, very creative thinkers and doers and are a marketing agency and work with very big brands. And anyway, she's just like someone who is really smart and really creative. [00:52] a thinker for sure but also executes on stuff and and has a lot of in the trenches experience that she pulls on for her insights it's not just like think boy stuff and totally uh i really appreciate that about her yeah here are some brands that they work with just to level set bumble [01:08] everlane facebook meta [01:12] Jordan, Instagram, Margella, Nike, Snapchat. So just to give you some context for how legitimate this person is and the type of work that they do. And... [01:23] What I really loved about this conversation is basically Morning put out a report on the state of social media. We talked to Lydia earlier.

[01:30] about it. And she builds a case for exactly what Boys Club is. So I feel really great about the interview and very excited about the future of social media, the future of the internet. And I think we talk a lot about the future of the internet and oftentimes we're in the tech stack around it. And it was really nice to have a conversation around like how that stack of [02:00] people being able to build and create their own brands and economies and applications in a more intimate way is not only [02:09] what she thinks the future is but also like necessary to keep the internet fun and kind and interesting and it's really nice to see all the things that we talk about and went through all the time that I'm like sort of banging my head against the wall being like what are we doing here with all of this to be like oh I can kind of see it all kind of sort of coming together in a way that someone as cool and aesthetically aware as [02:33] the team at morning is thinking about and, and, [02:36] That was really, really encouraging for me personally. It was a great conversation. So I hope you enjoy. [02:41] you [02:42] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way.

[03:12] go to kraken.com backslash boys club not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive inc [03:24] - We're here with Lydia Pang. Welcome to the show, Lydia. - Hi, so happy to be here. - We're so happy to have you. Friend of the pod, friend of the voice. We're gonna be talking to you about the state of social media [03:37] today. [03:38] It's a big topic. Spicy. It's very spicy. So morning, your agency released a report called the state of social earlier this month. It is kind of an overview, a look at internet culture and kind of a social media audit. The report is in three parts. So the first part outlines where things are now. It reflects on the algorithmic flattening of culture, [04:08] that we talk about think about love to talk about a lot so excited to jump into that and then it goes into really your call to action which is about this idea of rewilding the web and reclaiming digital freedom and creativity and ending with some suggestions so just spiritually so aligned and so excited to to chat with you about it you too honestly when we were writing this i was literally thinking about you guys i feel like it is it is so the kind of thing i feel like we've [04:38] this conversation now. [04:40] Yeah, it's great. So is there anything you want to share more about the report, give a little bit more context for readers, anything we missed on sort of that like high level overview?

[04:49] No, only that at Morning we believe more broadly that the web is this beautiful tool for good. We are definitely the optimists that see the sunny side of the digital hellscape we all live in. And I suppose the report was set about to give brands a space to see themselves inside that new reality for social, which has become, I think for brands, a real space of... [05:12] great fear and you know they're conscious of their role in content pollution and so forth from like apology posts to like black squares or you know brands attempting to be dimir and mindful in newsletters it's like tough for them and so as a brand consultancy and a strategy agency we really wanted to set brands free and give them an opportunity to like play and deepen their law but also be additive and stop littering the internet with uh to the benefit of culture and to [05:42] So yeah, it's very much, I mean, our company motto and mission is be less shit, which is about incremental change. And so I do feel like there's a responsibility in like educating brands on ways to be better online to the benefit of culture broadly. So yeah, that was kind of like, I suppose, the macro ambition of it. [05:58] So you're an optimist. [06:00] which [06:01] is so interesting to hear you say that because like, I mean, for two reasons, one, because you're the aesthetics and sort of the visual direction of, first of all, is incredible. It's so good. So well defined. And you guys do an expert job at like, not only one have like identified this cool, very fresh, very different way of like the goth kind of dark stuff that you do, but also like always nail it. And so there's this consistency that, I mean, you're an expert

[06:31] work that you do for your own brand. But I also think there's something in both the brand expression and also in this report, which is like, it's dark. It is dark. There's a lot of dark stuff that's happening. And to be an optimist in the face of that, really takes something. I think it's something that we try and do at Boys Club as well. Like, [06:50] There's a lot of darkness in the industries that we look at all the time. And like we, we make a choice. It's a deliberate choice to try and remain optimistic about like how the good parts of this technology can impact our lives. So I'd love for you to talk more about like that optimism and what it might take for you to like cultivate it every day. Yeah, that's such a beautiful question, because it comes down to like, a real like root in my personality. And morning is such an extension [07:20] in darkness. That is actually the philosophy. And so morning's aesthetic and point of view, although seemingly nihilistic or dystopian, is very much about carving space for truth. And so if you're not coated in saccharine falsity, you're looking at dead in the eye, which means you can see the light very clearly. Is that Leonard Cohen that you can see the cracks of light in the darkness only? And I feel like our outlook and our aesthetic is holding space [07:50] that it's about, you know, it isn't ugly, it isn't pretty, it is ugly. [07:54] And seeing that and looking that in the eye and acknowledging that we exist in the belly of the beast...

[08:01] is way more cathartic and freeing because then we have space to ascend and choose, to your point, the internet we want to create. Because I'm not in the business of like being stagnant in toxic positivity or hope. I feel like that's like soft and potentially slow. I like the idea of this brutalism and acknowledgement, which feels quite punk and positive. And so it's very much tethered to my identity and how I approach the world and business. But then, yeah, the report is very much [08:31] about, look, we've got all these reports out there that are seemingly gonna save us and explain social, but that just feels like it's a soup [08:38] of like the same information asking us all to do more and be more. And I kind of wanted this report to be a call to action to marinade and perhaps do less. And so, yeah, hopefully that answer your question. I love that. It really aligns with [08:53] I'm reading this book by this Buddhist nun right now that's so good. It's called When Things Fall Apart for people who are interested. And I knew nothing about Buddhism before reading this book. But one of the things that the book talks about and sort of is central to the Buddhist practice is this idea that hopelessness is actually a good thing. Exactly. And that is so aligned with what you're saying. And that like in the act of meditation and noticing and holding all the things in your life, that there's something that... [09:20] is really that contentment comes from that and kindness for yourself and others come from that noticing. And I think when you think about the internet and the type of person that I want to be online and the type of internet that I want to see, it's very much aligned with that idea of like, I love the internet, but I want to be cognizant of what I'm consuming on it. Right. That's so beautiful that you bring Buddhism up because I feel like rewilding principles and then also this concept of chaos and darkness was very much our like,

[09:50] And in Chinese philosophy, in fact, like destruction and chaos is that inflection point where you are in absolute oblivion and thus can create. And so I do feel like there's so much opportunity for creation, which is what is gorgeous about the Internet, if we acknowledge those dark corners, I think. So yeah, I love that. I think that's so true about like those Buddhist philosophies of like sitting in the uncomfortable. [10:20] It's visually just really a pleasure to look at. But yeah, talk a little bit about who you collaborated with. And I know you created this for brands specifically, but yeah, I would love to hear more about that. [10:31] Yeah, so it came from a couple of different things. Like it was bubbling inside the agency as a feeling that we felt we needed to codify our thoughts around social because we were going to we were getting asked a lot to paper over the cracks of it for brands. And we were like, we need to go out with some thought leadership to like settle this so that we can then be really bold in our thinking as we consult. [11:01] a case for chaos, essentially. So that thought was in my brain. Then the agency was also kind of thinking about the state of social and our perspective on social, frankly, because that's a lot of our business. And we didn't want to just answer social briefs with like more rollout plans and a creator strategy. It kind of felt like it was counter to our

[11:21] belief. And so in order to be really demonstrative with clients, we needed to go out there with a philosophy. And then I think as well, we started talking to incredible people like Yancey Strickler, who wrote an incredible piece about the dark forest web and depressurized spaces. And then our community at morning, our shadow committee, which is like a group of 200 tastemakers and fixers around the world and asking their opinions about how they felt about social. And so it really was like a very [11:50] collaborative, iterative report in that sense. It was very much built by the community, which feels nice and [11:57] kind of on philosophy for the idea. And then yeah, like we created internally, but then also collaborated with Lee Heisig, who's an incredible designer in Paris, who helped us get out of our own way and not pastiche ourselves and make it too morning. We wanted to make sure it looked and felt like a iteration of ourselves without it being chintzy. How do you depict this rewilding of the internet without it feeling utopic? And I don't know, [12:22] sort of trivial. And so she did a really good job of generating in Midjourney loads of weird, rewilded creatures with like multiple nipples and several legs. And it just kind of felt like it all came together, this like gross, cute aesthetic, you know? Totally. I want to talk about like, if we feel like it's [12:40] it's really possible because I think there's like an optimism about technology generally and and how it can impact our lives and then there's also like a real reality about how the algorithms work on these platforms that we spend so much time on and how they reward conformity in many ways and how this idea of conformity versus like true creativity feels hard right now when we're in an

[13:10] wins and who loses. And I want to believe it's possible. But I also feel a little helpless in the face of it when it's kind of feels like the algorithm is out of my control. Of course, there's all these like other cool decentralized social stuff. And we live in that world. But there's no distribution. There's no reach in that world yet. And so the bridge feels... [13:30] Far. [13:31] Yeah, I hear you. But I think it's really interesting to hear you use the word reach. Because I think what I'm arguing for, or at least trying to give attention to, is the power of the potent, small, sometimes hidden, unknown spaces and the accumulative impact of that. [14:01] back to biodiversity and it's slow and iterative and collaborative and it's not finite or final, which I [14:09] I find comforting because I don't think that there is a binary answer or switch. I'm not like, oh, we're going to return to Web One vibes. Like that's not what I'm trying to say or fight for. I think the next version of us will be not in spite of all of that sameness and cultural flattening, but because of it. And therefore we'll find like exciting new edges inside of that. I don't think that they will exist inside the algorithm. I think there will be interesting [14:39] Thank you. [14:40] If we're asking that of those spaces, I think that's too tall an expectation. I almost feel like

[14:46] I have acquiesced and like accepted the spaces where that is happening. And I'm now excited to like carve and frankly design spaces where it isn't, which I think is more rousing than ever, because I've always been an infiltrate from within gal. I've worked for big corporates. I've like done pretty well on centralized social. I've always been good at leveraging that beast, but never have I felt more inspired by to create my own products. And I've never felt like that. [15:16] infiltrating from within. But when I think about things like, you know, P.I.F.Y.I. and that kind of anti-algorithm, I built this in a few weeks over Thanksgiving, what do you think? Tyler Bainbridge's project, [15:27] born out of the newsletter. Obviously, he's leveraging web one aesthetic, which I think is nostalgic and cozy. But I do like watching people literally code products as a solution to something they're not getting. [15:39] Yeah. What I'm hearing from you that is coming out of this report and I'm seeing as [15:44] in the landscape of our world is there's all these centralized social media platforms. They're competing for attention and everybody's it's almost like player versus player type thing where everybody's trying to get to the top of the algorithm that produces so much noise and it becomes a race to who can be the most edgy or the most played to those algorithms in a way that's really inauthentic and not true to what you're speaking of, of like authentic creativity. It's [16:14] And that's happened. And then there's all of this technology that's happened that has made the ability for people to create their own pockets of the Internet easier than ever. Yes. It's easier than ever to build your own apps. It's easier than ever to launch your own financial rewards and economies with meme coins and things like that, as well as this move towards niche and creator first content.

[16:44] Perfectly Imperfect is a wonderful encapsulation of all of these things coming to life in one project. But I see, I totally see the world that you, how we've gotten to where we are and how that is a more positive and more a space that is nurturing to distinct communities and creativity. I think. [17:03] One of the things that I constantly sort of come back to with us at Boys Club is like that is... [17:10] limiting as a business. You're inherently a small business, if that's going to be the game that you're playing. And I'm curious if that's something that's come up for you as you're talking to brands and as you're painting this picture of a new type of landscape around social media. And when I talk about social media, I'm talking about a very broad stroke, not just like Instagram. I'm talking about like everywhere we show up in a social way online today and what those conversations have looked like in a really practical way when you're painting this landscape [17:40] more niche way of approaching this type of creation. [17:43] Very challenging. [17:45] - Yeah. - They are really, they're really hard conversations, and are somewhat counter to [17:52] commercial success in my business, but I want, morning has always led with philosophy first, product second. And so we will consult and shepherd brands to better if they are open to hearing. And most of them are starting to understand that actually being big and littering the internet with content corn and more is more is not better. They're realizing that now you see the massive

[18:22] you know, neighborhoods or local communities because they're trying to tap into the potent and the niche. And so it's a challenging conversation because it is right now seemingly at odds with scale, commerciality. So for us, a big part of this report was laying the landscape for why this is necessary and urgent. And then saying to brands, right, we'll now partner with us to figure out a roadmap for what that looks like for you. Are you launching a WhatsApp community? [18:52] create product. Like if you have appetite to operate in that way and you have the resources and you're able to play, be brave enough to play long game, we're here for it. We'll help you. We will be with you on that whole journey, but it will take a minute. You will purge, you will purge following. You may not necessarily get, you know, the metrics that you were imagining right away. It's not, it's not short-term gain this. It's long-term gain. And I feel like some brands are [19:22] legacy and longevity are on board and see it, but it is a challenging conversation. It's really tough. [19:28] And it's hard for me to turn away briefs that are potentially like, you know, a month sprint to do something that I know is just going to lit a TikTok, you know, and it's like, actually, that's not really going to set you up. I could take your money, but it's not going to help you. [19:40] Yeah. What does the ideal end state or I know, you know, you spoke about rewilding being this constantly evolving thing, which I think is a really cool way to think about it. But like, if it is a long game, like what are some of those examples or outcomes that you think would be really cool for or positive or potentially have commercial impact over a longer period of time for some of these brands or people that you're talking to? Like curious, like what how it comes to life?

[20:03] Yeah, it's interesting because I think like if we dig in beyond like marketing comms feeling more generous and abundant and decentralized, which is kind of a veneer, isn't it? If we actually dig into the infrastructure of like low key capitalism, this is about us shifting our models for how we are. [20:22] paying, being paid, how we're selling goods, how we're collaborating, how we're profit splitting those collaborations. So this is all to say that the future state for these types of expressions for brands will mean them having to fully... [20:36] transform their literal infrastructure as a business. If they want to meet their promise and meet the community where it's at, if they want to be rewarded with longevity and depth and true engagement, then brands actually need to start to co-author with the internet, with the community in order to win commercially. So it's a tough one because it's an ugly answer because it's not easy to do. And I don't think everyone will make it. [21:03] And I'm glad. [21:05] Yeah, it reminds me of when, you know, in the olden days, when we were all trying to, us elder millennials were trying to onboard brands to social media in the first place, where it was like this moment where, you know, whatever, MySpace, early Facebook was happening and marketers like myself were looking at it and being like, okay, big brands, it's an opportunity for you.

[21:35] I bet you think about marketing, you've got to be far less precious. This isn't a 30 second TV ad. There was that education that was happening at the time. For better or worse, it happened the way it happened. But that was definitely a conversation I remember having at agencies many, many times with brand partners who were like, "I want some social, but I want to [21:55] still have everything go through legal in the same way that like a 30 second ad spot did. And, and so kind of like what you're saying is, [22:02] is that same kind of moment happening, but also like applying it. It's not just a superficial like comms and marketing effort at this point. It's like going down into the stack of the business and like the product creation and the way that the business is run. Is that like an accurate way to be thinking? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's like we can't paper over a rotten call with marketing anymore. [22:23] We used to, and frankly, my job was way easier, but now you can't do that no more. The model has to mirror the true intention and you have to commit to the bit. And so brands that are built now, like you think of folks like Telfar, are set up to roll that way inherently because it's built into the bones of their business model. [22:53] Yeah, years passed when we were rattling around trying to convince them. I remember those times exactly. But it's an interesting moment because, you know, we have shifted through the era of social cutdowns and then, you know, brand omnipresence and influence. And now we're in this era of infiltration where provocation is the currency. But what I'm asking my brand partners, the ones we've been working with for years, is get yourself ready to now be truly co-authoring culture again.

[23:23] you have to say something relevant and say less, but better. [23:26] In your report, you talk about sort of like an influencer era where it was like all influencer first. And I feel like we and what we're talking about here and like this small and the cozy spaces and the community built out of sort of these like smaller invite only or affinity based communities or whatever it is. Do you think that's still like. [23:46] creator first in some way. How do you balance [23:50] Something I constantly struggle with is like, are we just repeating the influencer model in like a different way with different words, but it's the same thing? Or how do you think about sort of the move of, I think about like Feed Me and Emily Suddenberg and like that? [24:04] type of brand that's being built in her media presence. And that feeling like very creator first, like every single one of her newsletters is a photo of her first. And like, that's part of it. But it feels different to me than the influencer landscape of I don't know, even five years ago, but I can't quite put my finger on what the difference is. And I'm curious if you have any thoughts around that in the new world. [24:25] wave that you want to see. [24:26] Yeah, I have thoughts. They're not fully codified, but I agree with you. There was a moment where influence meant knowledge about something and then it sort of fractured and it was like influence meant like... [24:40] saturating you in who I am, versions of myself, and that abundance and that oversharing will win me views. And I think we're returning now to a space of expertise. [24:51] people still want to engage with true influence and they want to understand what they're going to, what the value exchange is going to be, which is why I think it's interesting when you see folks, you know, building these communities, you know, potent, but still like, you know, 20, 30,000 communities who are gathered around a specific, you know, mushroom foraging in my, for me. And I feel like those forums and those discord groups and those Facebook groups, like they are,

[25:21] influencing each other and there will be folks that lead those communities. And I think in that sense, creators are still world building. It's just smaller and more specific. And I only want to listen if it's about that. I'm not interested if you're going to suddenly become like an entire lifestyle curator and you're going to tell me what curtains to buy, what soap to use and where to go on holiday. It's almost like pick your thing and do it well. [25:45] So maybe it's more about the curation thing [25:48] element inside creators. [25:50] That's so interesting. Yeah, I, about a, [25:53] year and a half ago my instagram was hacked and it was a gift because it made just like i just had to restart and have been really thoughtful about like who i'm following and the intake that i have on instagram and once you do that [26:07] and you then get back to it, you're like, wow, matcha lattes and Pilates. Like, I cannot see another woman posting. I literally can't. And it worked. And it was a thing that like, [26:18] people built businesses off of, which is wonderful. But like, [26:22] I'm so disinterested in that. But when I think about what has happened, when you think about people who have taken off on TikTok, a huge part of it is like they're one thing. They're like, this is the thing that I'm going to talk about. And I'm going to talk about it over and over and over again. And I'm an expert in this thing. And that is what's worked. And I think that it's the same sort of what you're speaking to of like expertise and influence as like a real driver of why people want to consume and follow specific creators as opposed to, yeah, just full lifestyle

[26:52] that are people. And I think people, it's just tired and people are fatigued by it. I think it's fatiguing, right? And I think also there's an, I'm excited about this return to craft over graft. I like this idea of like small things [27:06] you know meaningful gestures that are specific versus like such abundance and like kind of pollution I think there's something really nice about craft getting its flowers you know and I think that with brands before it was all brands trying to like shit post and then like post every day and like consume stories and it was like it felt like never ending honestly and I'm glad we're through that now and I say to brands like post less you don't need to post three times a day your community management voice doesn't need to be consistent you're a fucking human being as well [27:36] that's like gorgeous and alluring and that's what we want. And so I'm excited about this return to craft and seeing more polished creativity. Like I think about Isamaya and the world she's built around her beauty brand. And like they are not social first assets. It's like a music video and it's like a crazy set design. It's not even formatted correctly. But like, it doesn't matter because it's a world she's built. And I'm a bit like I kind of want to be in it and I'm going to buy the lipstick. [28:02] Yeah, yeah. You have so many wonderful phrases and sort of just like ways that you describe things. One of them is the chaos pendulum and constructed chaos. Can you talk to us more about that? [28:12] Yes, so at Morning, we believe... [28:15] in acknowledging the kind of coexistence of seemingly at odds elements. And so this spectrum of chaos and order we see as an antidote because it embraces the swing, right, between all these planes at once and the coexistence of them all. And I think it's very millennial of us and very old school millennial social media marketing to crave the binary. Like this is a rollout plan. This is how you beat the algorithm. This is how you win. So I like the idea of moving out of a

[28:45] moving between planes of random, underground, demystified and brutalist. And so if we think about chaos as an ingredient for brands and constructed chaos, some of the examples that we have in the report are things like Brat, which is a really nice example of expert marketing. It's simple. It was specific. And then they allowed it to get adopted and grow with the audience. So [29:15] to go and build on it for you. They chose to make it viral versus the awful, when you get a brief and it says, KPI virality, and you're like, "Babe." - Forget it. Unsubscribe. - Yeah. So there's a, I think it's very rousing for marketers to think about chaos as an ingredient instead of something to be feared. We're like so terrified that the consumer is gonna run off and misunderstand our CTA, but how wonderful, if they're kind of like, [29:45] they're bewildered and then they feel like they want to explore it or build on it. And I think that generative nature has been missed in marketing a lot. Like I think again about like Kanye buying that Super Bowl ad spot, the most expensive Super Bowl ad spot, and then it just being like a camera video of himself being like, buy the shoe, like whatever. It felt like that was a place where we're used to seeing glossy, you know, corporate cinematic TV ads and the disruption of that media [30:15] us all up and it felt so self-aware and full of satire and so I think that's really interesting as well when we think about

[30:22] that. [30:23] I also think it's interesting that both those references I just gave you are individuals instead of brands. And I do think that celebrities and personas, they're always ahead when it comes to social. They're so much more agile and they're so much more nimble around how they build law. And I feel like that's probably why Skims has done so well. They are on it. I come up with a thought on who would be smart for them to be included in the campaign. It's there the next day. I don't know how they're so... [30:51] reactive and agile, but it has this reactivity which feels purposeful and chaotic without feeling like desperate and like clinging on to the trend cycle. So there's something in that too. Similarly, Essence, I feel like is a really nice example. She knows herself. She knows her consumer. There's like a... [31:10] obnoxious specificity to the copy. And I'm like, yeah, that's put you've done it. You nailed it. Just carry on as you were. Yeah. Skims and Kim just have me just in their grip. Yeah. Every time I'm just like, wow, I can't, I can't stop. I can't stop ordering from this place. And it's really extraordinary to, it's so fun to watch a brand, a huge brand to be so successful and how nimble [31:40] it's possible. [31:41] Thank you. [31:42] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly.

[32:12] kraken.com backslash boys club not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive inc no third-party transfers available [32:24] okay i just want to end what is your advice to brands a few sentences on okay if you're a creator in this landscape if you're brand in this landscape like you've spoken to this a bit but like [32:33] Just the main takeaway that they should have is they're thinking about their... [32:37] social media strategy for 2025. Fuck. Okay. No, no. I think a lot of what we've spoken to here has been about bravery. [32:48] and seeking like the wild, rewilding yourself. So I think find your people, go deep, do less better, forget clawing for reach and jumping on cringe trends that is like going to make you imminently passe. Find your people and be generous with them and they will reward you. [33:09] Hm. [33:09] Wow. Preach. I could listen to it all day. I love it. Okay. Wait, one last thing. Favorite meme at the moment. [33:16] My favorite meme at the moment is praying of just put it on a hat. So that's why it's top of mind. But I love the meme whole day I'm fucking busy, only get few money. [33:27] I haven't come across her. It's perfect. I can't wait to see. I look at it and I'm like, fuck, I hate that. It's so accurate. I hate it. Whole day I'm fucking busy, only get few money. Man, truer words. So I'll be buying the hat.

[33:46] um lydia thank you so much this was so fun to talk with you and really always endlessly inspired by the way that you see the world and the internet and your kindness and creativity around it so thank you for sharing it with us today you guys so fun to hang out